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TOPIC: Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky

Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 08 Jul 2016 03:59 #1

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This topic is for discussion on the book Worlds in Collision by author Immanuel Velikovsky, published in 1950, and the ideas brought forward by this author.

A good start to learn the mainstream views is always Wikipedia, knowing it is controlled and maintained by the people in power and many topics are full of pushed lies or half-truths.

Obviously I haven't read the book (yet), so I cannot comment on it directly, but the ideas from it should be correctly displayed in general on other sites, especially Wikipedia, because if not, it would have been edited.

====================

Worlds in Collision
Worlds in Collision is a book written by Immanuel Velikovsky and first published April 3, 1950. The book postulated that around the 15th century BCE, Venus was ejected from Jupiter as a comet or comet-like object, and passed near Earth (an actual collision is not mentioned). The object changed Earth's orbit and axis, causing innumerable catastrophes that were mentioned in early mythologies and religions around the world. Many of the book's claims are completely rejected by the established scientific community as they are not supported by any available evidence.

The book was first published on April 3, 1950, by Macmillan Publishers. Macmillan's interest in publishing it was encouraged by the knowledge that Velikovsky had obtained a promise from Gordon Atwater, Director of the Hayden Planetarium, for a sky show based on the book when it was published. The book, Velikovsky's most criticized and controversial, was an instant New York Times bestseller, topping the charts for eleven weeks while being in the top ten for twenty-seven straight weeks. Despite this popularity, overwhelming rejection of its thesis by the scientific community forced Macmillan to stop publishing it and to transfer the book to Doubleday within two months.


Pause. Wow, the red flags are flapping all over the place here already and we haven't even seen anything yet.

1 - The book postulated that around the 15th century BCE, Venus was ejected from Jupiter as a comet or comet-like object, and passed near Earth
A - how was this done? What is the proposed mechanism for this "event"?
B - how can an allegedly rocky planet (Venus) "eject from" a gaseous planet (Jupiter)?
C - assuming this indeed "happened", how come Venus didn't crash into the Sun (or Earth, or Mars), but became stable in orbit around the by far most gravitational body in the solar system?

2 - The object changed Earth's orbit and axis, causing innumerable catastrophes that were mentioned in early mythologies and religions around the world
A - how did it "change Earth's orbit"? What mechanism is proposed? The axis? How can the axis of the Earth be changed by a "comet"? What is meant here? The axis itself, the angle of the axis with respect to x, y or z? And which axis? The axis of rotation? The axis of obliquity?
B - early mythologies and religions around the world, we will see further how that spins out (pun intended)

3 - Macmillan's interest in publishing it was encouraged by the knowledge that Velikovsky had obtained a promise from Gordon Atwater, Director of the Hayden Planetarium, for a sky show based on the book when it was published
A - :larf: :larf: :larf: :larf: :iitm: :iitm:
B - a "promise" for a "sky show" is enough for a publishing house to start publishing a -highly controversial- book? Who writes this crap?
C - who is "Gordon Atwater"? Is it this Gordon Atwater? German last names and jewish first names all over the place... Some nobody from a planetarium in Boston that is so "notable" that it doesn't even have an own wiki page??
D - a sky show? What "sky show"? The wiki section on that planetarium doesn't even list it, so it cannot have been important at all

4 - [the book] was an instant New York Times bestseller, topping the charts for eleven weeks
A - Really?? :larf:
B - things don't work this way. You cannot just publish a book and then it "magically" becomes an instant bestseller. Less in 1950, when the people didn't have too much money to spend on books. "Topping the charts for -it is written out, so the numerology fans don't notice it right away- 11 weeks?
C - the New York Times is a big red flag on its own, being the mouthpiece for the most devote Zionists out there
D - to make something a "bestseller", think of today with the Fifty Shades of Grey joke, you have to advertise it. And advertising costs a lot of money. Also in 1950. Where did that money come from? From the same "promise" as is stated in the intro? Was paper boy Velikovsky working his -jewish- bottom off to make that happen? No way. Things that become "instant bestsellers" are pushed by powerful people.

5 - [in the top 10 for] twenty-seven straight weeks. Despite this popularity, overwhelming rejection of its thesis by the scientific community forced Macmillan to stop publishing it and to transfer the book to Doubleday within two months
A - again the effort was taken to write out the number, but we are talking 27 weeks. Straight. So we have: 11 and 9 (2+7). Doesn't that raise any suspicion around here??
B - "despite this popularity" "Macmillan was 'forced' to stop publishing" "within 2 months"?? Huh? 2 months = 8 weeks. So if it was an "instant" "success", it was still at the #1 position when the original publisher decided to "transfer" the book to "Doubleday"? Whut? Publishers don't want to make money? That is the whole idea of publishers; that they make money from book sales. Writer friends of mine have gained little money with books, just because the bulk was going to the publisher. So this doesn't make ANY sense. Whatsoever.
C - "the rejection by the 'scientific' community forced the publisher to transfer the book to another one"? What did Macmillan expect? Nobody at Macmillan read the book before they published it? They thought that "the scientific community" would embrace this right away? Again, not any sense is made.
D - there is no relation between a "rejection" and the decisions of a publisher. Back to B; publishers want to make money. They couldn't care a comet's tail if it is "rejected" or not. There is no "force" involved at all. A publisher is only "forced" to stop publishing if the sale numbers are far too low. They make expectations and planning beforehand. A book that is at # 1 of the charts for 11 weeks straight is NOT a failure...

==========================

I haven't even started and it's already so fishy that I have to swallow some sour stomach substances spoiling sweet saliva that I will stop here now and see what the others have to say about this...

Holy crap... :O
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Last Edit: 08 Jul 2016 04:42 by Gaia.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 08 Jul 2016 10:27 #2

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For all its iffiness, it still tries to postulate natural explanations for past events, which is always better than saying "God did it."
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 16:20 #3

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From Worlds in Collision by Immanuel Velikovsky:

"A conception of ages that were brought to their end by violent changes in nature is common all over the world." - p. 33.

""There is a period," wrote Censorinus, "called 'the supreme year' by Aristotle, at the end of which the sun, moon, and all the planets return to their original position. This 'supreme year' has a great winter, called by the Greeks kataklysmos, which means deluge, and a great summer, called by the Greeks ekpyrosis, or combustion of the world. The world, actually, seems to be inundated and burned alternately in each of these epochs.
"Anaximenes and Anaximander in the sixth pre-Christian century, and Diogenes of Apollonia in the fifth century, assumed the destruction of the world with subsequent recreation. Heraclitus (-540 to -475) taught that the world is destroyed in conflagration after every period of 10,800 years. Aristarchus of Samos in the third century before the present era taught that in a period of 2,484 years the earth undergoes two destructions - of combustion and deluge. The Stoics generally believed in periodic conflagrations by which the world was consumed, to be shaped anew. "This is due to the forces of ever-active fire which exists in things and in the course of long cycles of time resolves everything into itself and out of it is constructed a reborn world" - so Philo presented the notion of the Stoics that our world is refashioned in periodic conflagrations.
"Hesiod, one of the earliest Greek authors, wrote about four ages and four generations of men that were destroyed by the wrath of the planetary gods...
"Analogous traditions of four expired ages persist on the shores of the Bengal Sea and in the highland of Tibet - the present age is the fifth.
"The sacred Hindu book Bhagavata Purana tells of four ages and of pralayas or cataclysms in which, in various epochs, mankind was nearly destroyed; the fifth age is that of the present. The world ages are called Kalpas or Yugas. Each world age met its destruction in catastrophes of conflagration, flood, and hurricane. Ezour Vedam and Bhaga Vedam, sacred Hindu books, keeping to the scheme of four expired ages, differ only in the number of years ascribed to each. In the chapter, "World Cycles," in Visuddhi-Magga, it is said that "there are three destructions: the destruction by water, the destruction by fire, the destruction by wind," but that there are seven ages, each of which is separated from the previous one by a world catastrophe.
"Reference to ages and catastrophes is found in Avesta (Zend-Avesta), the sacred scriptures of Mazdaism, the ancient religion of the Persians.
"Bahman Yast, one of the books of Avesta, counts seven world ages or millennia. Zarathustra (Zoroaster), the prophet of Mazdaism, speaks of "the signs, wonders, and perplexity which are manifested in the world at the end of each millennium."
"The Chinese call the perished ages kis and number ten kis from the beginning of the world until Confucius. In the ancient Chinese encyclopedia, Sing-li-ta-tsiuen-chou, the general convulsions of nature are discussed. Because of the periodicity of these convulsions, the span of time between two catastrophes is regarded as a "great year." As during a year, so during a world age, the cosmic mechanism winds itself up and "in a general convulsion of nature, the sea is carried out of its bed, mountains spring out of the ground, rivers change their course, human beings and everything are ruined, and the ancient traces effaced."
"An old tradition, and a very persistent one, of world ages that went down in cosmic catastrophes was found in the Americas among the Incas, the Aztecs, and the Mayas.
"A major part of stone inscriptions found in Yucatan refer to world catastrophes. "The most ancient of these fragments [katuns or calendar stones of Yucatan] refer, in general, to great catastrophes which, at intervals and repeatedly, convulsed the American continent, and of which all nations of this continent have preserved a more or less distinct memory."
"Codices of Mexico and Indian authors who composed the annals of their past give a prominent place to the tradition of world catastrophes that decimated humankind and changed the face of the earth.
"In the chronicles of the Mexican kingdom it is said: "The ancients knew that before the present sky and earth were formed, man was already created and life had manifested itself four times."
"A tradition of successive creations and catastrophes is found in the Pacific - on Hawaii and on the islands of Polynesia: there were nine ages and in each age a different sky was above the earth. Icelanders, too, believed that nine worlds went down in a succession of ages, a tradition that is contained in the Edda."" - p. 33-4.


The pages numbers I used are from my pdf version which is available on the internet.
Last Edit: 14 Jul 2016 16:27 by fidelio.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 16:26 #4

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Gaia wrote:
I haven't even started and it's already so fishy that I have to swallow some sour stomach substances spoiling sweet saliva that I will stop here now and see what the others have to say about this...

Holy crap... :O

I said earlier that Worlds in Collision is a "mind-blower". I should mention that I read it from the perspective of someone interested in the ages of history and the binary star theory. I dont agree with his timetable, and I think the Venus argument is confused. I liked the book largely because it brought together references, from an academic, for a lot of information I was looking for.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 16:32 #5

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Here are a couple quotes from Worlds in Collision about multiple suns and their relationships to the ages:

"An oft-repeated occurrence in the traditions of the world ages is the advent of a new sun in the sky at the beginning of every age. The word "sun" is substituted for the word "age" in the cosmogonical traditions of many peoples all over the world." - p. 36.

"The Buddhist sacred book of Visuddhi-Magga contains a chapter on "World Cycles." "There are three destructions: the destruction by water, the destruction by fire, the destruction by wind." After the catastrophe of the deluge, "when now a long period has elapsed from the cessation of the rains, a second sun appeared." In the interim the world was enveloped in gloom. "When this second sun appears, there is no distinction of day and night," but "an incessant heat beats upon the world." When the fifth sun appeared, the ocean gradually dried up; when the sixth sun appeared, "the whole world became filled with smoke." "After the lapse of another long period, a seventh sun appears, and the whole world breaks into flames." This Buddhist book refers also to a more ancient "Discourse on the Seven Suns."
"The Brahmans called the epochs between two destructions "the great days." - p. 36.

The "great days" sounds like a golden age.

For more information on the binary star theory, see Lost Star of Myth and Time by Walter Cruttenden and The Holy Science by Sri Yukteswar.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 16:38 #6

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However cataclysmic these proposed events are, they obviously aren't capable of totally wiping out Earth's most destructive pest.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 16:56 #7

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New suns, disasters, changes in the Earth, a comet, etc.:

"In the calendar of the Western Hemisphere, on the thirteenth day of the month, called olin, "motion" or "earthquake," a new sun is said to have initiated another world age." - p. 53.

"A body larger than the moon or one nearer to the earth would act with greater effect. A comet with a head as large as the earth, passing sufficiently close, would raise the waters of the oceans miles high. The slowing down or stasis of the earth in its rotation would cause a tidal recession of water toward the poles, but the celestial body near by would
disturb this poleward recession, drawing the water toward itself.
"The traditions of many peoples persist that seas were torn apart and their water heaped high and thrown upon the continents. In order to establish that these traditions refer to one and the same event, or at least to an event of the same order, we must keep to this guiding sequence: the great tide followed a disturbance in the motion of the earth." - p. 57.

"In many places of the world, and especially in the north, large boulders are found in a position which proves that a great force must have lifted them up and carried them long distances before depositing them where they are found today. Sometimes these large loose rocks are of entirely different mineral composition than the local rocks, but are akin to formations many miles away." - p. 59.

"Among the early authors, Lydus, Servius (who quotes Avienus), Hephaestion, and Junctinus, in addition to Pliny, mention the Typhon comet. It is depicted as an immense globe (globus immodicus) of fire, also as a sickle, which is a description of a globe illuminated by the sun, and close enough to be observed thus. Its movement was slow, its path was close to the sun. Its color was bloody: "It was not of fiery, but of bloody redness." It caused destruction "in rising and setting." Servius writes that this comet caused many plagues, evils, and hunger." - p. 64.

"The Finns tell in their Kalevala that the support of the sky gave way and then a spark of fire kindled a new sun and a new moon." - p. 67.

"These and other Mexican sources relate how, at the closing hours of the age that was brought to an end by the rain of fire, mountains swelled under the pressure of molten masses and new ridges rose; new volcanoes sprang out of the earth, and streams of lava flowed out of the cleft earth.
...
"The rivers steamed, and even the bottom of the sea boiled here and there. "The sea boiled, all the shores of the ocean boiled, all the middle of it boiled," says the Zend-Avesta. The star Tistrya made the sea boil." - p. 69.


From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_in_Collision :
"Worlds in Collision is a book written by Immanuel Velikovsky and first published April 3, 1950. The book postulated that around the 15th century BCE, Venus was ejected from Jupiter as a comet or comet-like object, and passed near Earth (an actual collision is not mentioned). The object changed Earth's orbit and axis, causing innumerable catastrophes that were mentioned in early mythologies and religions around the world.

It's been a while since I read the book, but I originally thought it was significant that there may have been an object in the heavens which caused amazing happenings on Earth and in the sky.

Velikovsky equates Tistrya with Venus several times. I have seen, elsewhere, Tistrya associated with Ishtar and both of these with Sirius. Venus is a goddess as well as a planet. Isis is also associated with Sirius. I think a lot of these goddesses are similar. Isis, Ishtar, Astarte, Easter (Ēostre or Ostara), East Star... Easter is a celebration of resurrection.

Freemasonry has its goddess, which can be seen very prominently in the Statue of Liberty, with its torch and crown of illumination. The goddess is also a symbol of the kundalini, which rises when the goddess star returns, initiating enlightenment. Allegedly...
Last Edit: 14 Jul 2016 16:59 by fidelio.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 17:04 #8

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ragnarok wrote:
However cataclysmic these proposed events are, they obviously aren't capable of totally wiping out Earth's most destructive pest.

Ah, yes......mosquitoes. They can be annoying. ;)
Last Edit: 14 Jul 2016 17:04 by fidelio.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 17:10 #9

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fidelio wrote:
Freemasonry has its goddess, which can be seen very prominently in the Statue of Liberty, with its torch and crown of illumination. The goddess is also a symbol of the kundalini, which rises when the goddess star returns, initiating enlightenment. Allegedly...



There's the five-pointed star behind her. There are the two towers/columns, as well, united by the arch. They are the oppositions in man which must be unified to reach higher consciousness.
Last Edit: 14 Jul 2016 17:15 by fidelio.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 17:18 #10

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Why would anybody but death cult worshippers have reverence for a "goddess star" which brings cataclysmic destruction?
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 18:10 #11

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Thanks for the quoted pieces, fidelio, they explain the ideas quite well, I think.

My first point is that the starting point of Velikovsky is the text written by people in the past. We don't know what was exactly meant by them and as we know that the majority of the people was illiterate, it makes it harder to accept the things written by the Elites as true, without a critical eye.

He talks about "events that are present in the stories of all cultures around the world". Assuming he has done his research well and that indeed is the case, then in order to interpret such an Earth shattering event, they need to be consistent in time. If the Sumerians describe a "large comet" in 2400 BC, the Australian aborigenes talk about a "big light in the sky" around 300 AD, and the predecessors of the Aztec an event in 1300 BC, they cannot be the same. In order to extract the presence of such an event, it has to be coherent, for all peoples around the world.

Back to the first point; the correct starting point would be the geological evidence and only descriptions of people as secondary, not the other way around. If sediments around the world show evidence of catastrophic events and they are all dated to the same period, then there's a good starting point. I am not aware of such observations, coherent in time.

His description of the wandering boulders, in the mainstream science interpreted as the result of transport by glaciers, is not honest. "boulders that are lifted up and transported for many kilometres" is not true. They do not need to be "lifted up", if they were simply in the glacial flow. The lifting up part is an interpretation needed to fit his first hypothesis. And again here; if there really would be a "worldwide event", then there should be boulders everywhere on Earth, not just in zones that were going through stadials and interstadials of ice ages.

The idea of a "second Sun" also causes more questions than answers. Where is that "second Sun" now then? How come we don't see it? How come if it was a comet that "was close to Earth" it didn't crash into the Earth or left tail pieces as big meteorites crashing onto Earth? How does it work astronomically? That Venus idea, which gravity laws allow for such a "Jupiter blows out Venus and then it becomes stable -and spherical- in orbit around the Sun"? Is there any physical basis for this, or is it just armwaiving?

If there are events that "made the sea boil", again that needs to be backed up by geological evidence and need to be present all over the globe. If the sea would boil in let's say the Levant, and it's caused by an extraterrestrial factor, then the sea must also boil in Japan, Ghana and Canada. And in the same period.
I said earlier that Worlds in Collision is a "mind-blower". I should mention that I read it from the perspective of someone interested in the ages of history and the binary star theory. I dont agree with his timetable, and I think the Venus argument is confused. I liked the book largely because it brought together references, from an academic, for a lot of information I was looking for.

Ok, but a book doesn't
- become a "mind-blower" only because of the list of references. Then many books would be "mind-blowing"
- become an instant best-seller because of references
- blow someones mind easily, less in scientific communities. And I don't mean the big shot Elitist scientists, but the scientists among the general audience. Before you mentioned this book, I never heard of it and I am quite sure none of my fellow geologists either
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 19:03 #12

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Gaia wrote:
My first point is that the starting point of Velikovsky is the text written by people in the past. We don't know what was exactly meant by them and as we know that the majority of the people was illiterate, it makes it harder to accept the things written by the Elites as true, without a critical eye.

He talks about "events that are present in the stories of all cultures around the world". Assuming he has done his research well and that indeed is the case, then in order to interpret such an Earth shattering event, they need to be consistent in time. If the Sumerians describe a "large comet" in 2400 BC, the Australian aborigenes talk about a "big light in the sky" around 300 AD, and the predecessors of the Aztec an event in 1300 BC, they cannot be the same. In order to extract the presence of such an event, it has to be coherent, for all peoples around the world.

Back to the first point; the correct starting point would be the geological evidence and only descriptions of people as secondary, not the other way around. If sediments around the world show evidence of catastrophic events and they are all dated to the same period, then there's a good starting point. I am not aware of such observations, coherent in time.

His description of the wandering boulders, in the mainstream science interpreted as the result of transport by glaciers, is not honest. "boulders that are lifted up and transported for many kilometres" is not true. They do not need to be "lifted up", if they were simply in the glacial flow. The lifting up part is an interpretation needed to fit his first hypothesis. And again here; if there really would be a "worldwide event", then there should be boulders everywhere on Earth, not just in zones that were going through stadials and interstadials of ice ages.

The idea of a "second Sun" also causes more questions than answers. Where is that "second Sun" now then? How come we don't see it? How come if it was a comet that "was close to Earth" it didn't crash into the Earth or left tail pieces as big meteorites crashing onto Earth? How does it work astronomically? That Venus idea, which gravity laws allow for such a "Jupiter blows out Venus and then it becomes stable -and spherical- in orbit around the Sun"? Is there any physical basis for this, or is it just armwaiving?

If there are events that "made the sea boil", again that needs to be backed up by geological evidence and need to be present all over the globe. If the sea would boil in let's say the Levant, and it's caused by an extraterrestrial factor, then the sea must also boil in Japan, Ghana and Canada. And in the same period.
I said earlier that Worlds in Collision is a "mind-blower". I should mention that I read it from the perspective of someone interested in the ages of history and the binary star theory. I dont agree with his timetable, and I think the Venus argument is confused. I liked the book largely because it brought together references, from an academic, for a lot of information I was looking for.

Ok, but a book doesn't
- become a "mind-blower" only because of the list of references. Then many books would be "mind-blowing"
- become an instant best-seller because of references
- blow someones mind easily, less in scientific communities. And I don't mean the big shot Elitist scientists, but the scientists among the general audience. Before you mentioned this book, I never heard of it and I am quite sure none of my fellow geologists either

I guess I have too many points to gather together here and type out. I only brought up the mind-blower thing because I realized as I was looking over the book again that it might have been more of a mind-blower for me than for others.

Obviously, this stuff is highly controversial, but it is intriguing if stories are similar across cultures. I assume a lot of the stories come down through oral traditions. Those relaying the stories may not even know their true meaning after hundreds or thousands of years.

As I mentioned earlier, I dont agree with his timeline or his Venus hypothesis. There is the Birth of Venus myth, and perhaps if we are in a binary system, that could be related.

I guess the main point was that these stories are out there and could agree with the theories of occultists. Again, none of this means the occult story is true.
Last Edit: 14 Jul 2016 19:04 by fidelio.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 20:56 #13

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Gaia wrote:
Back to the first point; the correct starting point would be the geological evidence and only descriptions of people as secondary, not the other way around. If sediments around the world show evidence of catastrophic events and they are all dated to the same period, then there's a good starting point. I am not aware of such observations, coherent in time.

If any of these controversial theories are true, that would mean geology and other sciences have failed us miserably and that they are therefore unreliable. I dont think we can ignore what people from the past have said, especially if there is cross-cultural confirmation.

We see this academic failure in the social sciences all the time, as many conspiracy theorists have discovered.
Last Edit: 14 Jul 2016 20:56 by fidelio.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:10 #14

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Gaia wrote:
The idea of a "second Sun" also causes more questions than answers. Where is that "second Sun" now then? How come we don't see it? How come if it was a comet that "was close to Earth" it didn't crash into the Earth or left tail pieces as big meteorites crashing onto Earth? How does it work astronomically? That Venus idea, which gravity laws allow for such a "Jupiter blows out Venus and then it becomes stable -and spherical- in orbit around the Sun"? Is there any physical basis for this, or is it just armwaiving?

The second sun is Sirius, our Sun's binary partner. I described this a little more in the 911-Dawn of Aquarius thread. This binary star system is the cause of the precession of the equinoxes and cyclical history.

The quotes from Velikovsky may describe inexact recollections of astronomical events. They may be inexact because they are traditions passed down from thousands of years ago which may not be understand fully by those who relay them.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:16 #15

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These quotes may describe the electro-magnetic effects which raise human consciousness:

"In the hymns of Rig-Veda, it is said that honey (madhu) comes from the clouds. These clouds originated from the pillar of cloud. Among the hymns of the Atharva-Veda there is one to the honey-lash: "From heaven, from earth, from the atmosphere, from the sea, from the fire, and from the wind, the honey-lash hath verily sprung. This, clothed in amrite (ambrosia), all the creatures revering, acclaim in their hearts."
"The Egyptian Book of the Dead speaks of "the divine clouds and the great dew" that bring the earth into contact with the heavens.
"The Greeks called the heavenly bread ambrosia. It is described by the Greek poets in identical terms with manna: it had the taste of honey and a fragrance. This heavenly bread has given classical scholars many headaches." - p. 94.

"The Maoris in the Pacific, the Jews on the border of Asia and Africa, the Hindus, the Finns, the Icelanders, all describe the honey-food being dropped from the clouds, dreary shades of the shadow of death, that enveloped the earth after a cosmic catastrophe. All traditions agree also that the source of the heavenly bread falling from the clouds with the morning dew was a celestial body. The Sibyl says that the sweet heavenly bread came from the starry heavens. The planet-god Ukko, or Jupiter, is said to have been the source of the honey that dropped from the clouds. Athena covered other planet-goddesses with a "robe ambrosial," and provided nectar and ambrosia to the heroes. Other traditions, too, see the origin of the honey-dew in a celestial body that enveloped the earth in clouds. For this reason ambrosia or manna is called "heavenly bread."" - p. 95.


John 6:34-35: "Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

John 6:51: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Jesus is the Christ, or man in his higher state. "All traditions agree also that the source of the heavenly bread falling from the clouds with the morning dew was a celestial body."
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:18 #16

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fidelio wrote:
Gaia wrote:
Back to the first point; the correct starting point would be the geological evidence and only descriptions of people as secondary, not the other way around. If sediments around the world show evidence of catastrophic events and they are all dated to the same period, then there's a good starting point. I am not aware of such observations, coherent in time.

If any of these controversial theories are true, that would mean geology and other sciences have failed us miserably and that they are therefore unreliable.

:larf: :larf: :larf:

It is exactly the other way around; start with physical evidence and then look for human descriptions. Geology and related sciences (astronomy, hydrology, geochemistry, geophysics) are serious subjects, well studied over the course of centuries. To call that "unreliable", only based on 1 book by an author who has his premise the wrong way around is outlandish.

If someone writes a book on ancient medical practices that do not coincide with modern medical knowledge, one doesn't throw that basket of understanding in the bin either, only because it doesn't fit the stories written by people.
I dont think we can ignore what people from the past have said, especially if there is cross-cultural confirmation.

I have never said that we should "ignore" ancient writings and oral traditions, only to take them in their historical context, in times when the level of understanding of how the Earth and space works was way below what is currently known. And that includes the level of understanding of 1950, when this book was written.

That "cross-cultural" "confirmation" is only reliable if it is consistent in time and for such huge global events also reported all over the globe.

Like I said, taking a piece of text by Phoenicians from 1300 BC and use that as confirmation for things written in the Indus Valley around 1900 BC doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
We see this academic failure in the social sciences all the time, as many conspiracy theorists have discovered.

Yes, exactly, so it should make one aware and cautious to take the social "sciences" too seriously and rely more on physical and chemical evidence than what stories people have written.

The correct way of approaching the thesis set out by this author would be:
- search for physical evidence in the recent geological record - all over the globe
- if those are found, date them using common methods
- analyse texts from that period to see if they coincide with the descriptions and check if they are conformable with the global character and the time period resulting from the physical evidence

If there is a large consistency of those things (let's say 90% of the geological finds of an "astronomical event" leading to "boiling seas", "floods" and whatnot) with a large spread of texts and oral traditions (from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego, from Iceland to Sachalin and from Namibia to Australia), then you may have a strong correlation and thus a tangible case.

Cherry-picking texts from the Middle East (where Velikovsky has written most about) and then trying to fit some geological data to it, while disregarding the bulk of that data is not the way a serious scientist would approach such a problem.
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A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:24 #17

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fidelio wrote:
These quotes may describe the electro-magnetic effects which raise human consciousness:

"In the hymns of Rig-Veda, it is said that honey (madhu) comes from the clouds. These clouds originated from the pillar of cloud. Among the hymns of the Atharva-Veda there is one to the honey-lash: "From heaven, from earth, from the atmosphere, from the sea, from the fire, and from the wind, the honey-lash hath verily sprung. This, clothed in amrite (ambrosia), all the creatures revering, acclaim in their hearts."
"The Egyptian Book of the Dead speaks of "the divine clouds and the great dew" that bring the earth into contact with the heavens.
"The Greeks called the heavenly bread ambrosia. It is described by the Greek poets in identical terms with manna: it had the taste of honey and a fragrance. This heavenly bread has given classical scholars many headaches." - p. 94.

"The Maoris in the Pacific, the Jews on the border of Asia and Africa, the Hindus, the Finns, the Icelanders, all describe the honey-food being dropped from the clouds, dreary shades of the shadow of death, that enveloped the earth after a cosmic catastrophe. All traditions agree also that the source of the heavenly bread falling from the clouds with the morning dew was a celestial body. The Sibyl says that the sweet heavenly bread came from the starry heavens. The planet-god Ukko, or Jupiter, is said to have been the source of the honey that dropped from the clouds. Athena covered other planet-goddesses with a "robe ambrosial," and provided nectar and ambrosia to the heroes. Other traditions, too, see the origin of the honey-dew in a celestial body that enveloped the earth in clouds. For this reason ambrosia or manna is called "heavenly bread."" - p. 95.


John 6:34-35: "Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

John 6:51: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Jesus is the Christ, or man in his higher state. "All traditions agree also that the source of the heavenly bread falling from the clouds with the morning dew was a celestial body."

Well, we know that honey is not "coming from the clouds", but produced by bees, so that is the first major 'debunking' of those ancient stories. One cannot hold the people who wrote them responsible; they didn't know any better. But taking those stories seriously and refute the well-established process by bees is of course ridiculous.

The Bible is a very poor source of information. The New Testament has been written 300 (!!) years after the alleged events "happened". Imagine we would write a book based on stories only about what "happened" in 1716, from twisted and often propagandised "history". Do you think such a book would be very valuable?
All traditions agree also that the source of the heavenly bread falling from the clouds with the morning dew was a celestial body

Really? ALL traditions agree? That is a very dangerous claim. One can only make those claims when studying ALL traditions and I am sure that Velikovsky hasn't done that. He may well have been an expert on Egyptian and Mesopotamian texts, but didn't know much, or even anything, about the Chavin people, the Iroquois, or the Bushmen in Africa. Without studying ALL traditions, such a claim cannot be serious.
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:33 #18

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"Human consciousness" isn't a thermostat that you can turn up and down to get the desired effect. Religion has tried the tricky task of herding humans, and even there they can't agree on much.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:39 #19

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Gaia wrote:
Well, we know that honey is not "coming from the clouds", but produced by bees, so that is the first major 'debunking' of those ancient stories. One cannot hold the people who wrote them responsible; they didn't know any better. But taking those stories seriously and refute the well-established process by bees is of course ridiculous.

The Bible is a very poor source of information. The New Testament has been written 300 (!!) years after the alleged events "happened". Imagine we would write a book based on stories only about what "happened" in 1716, from twisted and often propagandised "history". Do you think such a book would be very valuable?

I thought you were taking this seriously. They are not talking about honey literally, obviously.

The theory of cyclical history includes the idea that our ancient ancestors were far more advanced than we currently believe.

Within the occult is the true meaning or interpretation of the Bible. It is full of allegories and symbolism which can be decoded. imo
Really? ALL traditions agree? That is a very dangerous claim. One can only make those claims when studying ALL traditions and I am sure that Velikovsky hasn't done that. He may well have been an expert on Egyptian and Mesopotamian texts, but didn't know much, or even anything, about the Chavin people, the Iroquois, or the Bushmen in Africa. Without studying ALL traditions, such a claim cannot be serious.

Let's not forget that you have not read the book.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:43 #20

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Gaia wrote:
:larf: :larf: :larf:

I thought you wanted to discuss this?

I am familiar with the scientific method. Yet, if there are things out there we have no comprehension of, then it may not work.

Again, these are not my personal theories.
Last Edit: 14 Jul 2016 21:47 by fidelio.
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