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TOPIC: Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky

Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 21:46 #21

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ragnarok wrote:
If they are not talking about honey literally, what are they talking about, and considering these texts were only for the initiated, why did they have to talk in fucking riddles all the time?

Electro-magnetic forces. Things than cannot be put into words, perhaps.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 22:30 #22

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fidelio wrote:
Gaia wrote:
Well, we know that honey is not "coming from the clouds", but produced by bees, so that is the first major 'debunking' of those ancient stories. One cannot hold the people who wrote them responsible; they didn't know any better. But taking those stories seriously and refute the well-established process by bees is of course ridiculous.

The Bible is a very poor source of information. The New Testament has been written 300 (!!) years after the alleged events "happened". Imagine we would write a book based on stories only about what "happened" in 1716, from twisted and often propagandised "history". Do you think such a book would be very valuable?

I thought you were taking this seriously. They are not talking about honey literally, obviously.

The theory of cyclical history includes the idea that our ancient ancestors were far more advanced than we currently believe.

Within the occult is the true meaning or interpretation of the Bible. It is full of allegories and symbolism which can be decoded. imo

But if the source is already unreliable, how can anyone claim to have the "true meaning" of such a book?

I indeed think that in certain aspects the ancient people were more advanced than previously believed, also because the first descriptions of many cultures are suffering from racism, eurocentrism, sexism and other primitive ideas about people from the past.

But that doesn't mean all their stories are necessarily true or hold value in an investigation of astronomical proportions.
Really? ALL traditions agree? That is a very dangerous claim. One can only make those claims when studying ALL traditions and I am sure that Velikovsky hasn't done that. He may well have been an expert on Egyptian and Mesopotamian texts, but didn't know much, or even anything, about the Chavin people, the Iroquois, or the Bushmen in Africa. Without studying ALL traditions, such a claim cannot be serious.

Let's not forget that you have not read the book.

That's true, but that doesn't mean the stories are more true then. Do you know if ALL those traditions -secondary evidence- are taken into account and do they present a confident case pinpointing a specific age or time period that correlates with the -primary- physical evidence?
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 23:05 #23

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Gaia wrote:
But if the source is already unreliable, how can anyone claim to have the "true meaning" of such a book?

I indeed think that in certain aspects the ancient people were more advanced than previously believed, also because the first descriptions of many cultures are suffering from racism, eurocentrism, sexism and other primitive ideas about people from the past.

You are not making an honest attempt to understand what I am saying. So, what's the point? The New Testament was not written three hundred years after 'Jesus' anyway.
That's true, but that doesn't mean the stories are more true then. Do you know if ALL those traditions -secondary evidence- are taken into account and do they present a confident case pinpointing a specific age or time period that correlates with the -primary- physical evidence?

It doesnt seem like they pinpoint anything exactly. I never claimed they did.

I have already said the primary evidence may not be trustworthy if there are unexplained factors. If you use geology to understand what happened in the past, you will not be able to perform an experiment which confirms your hypothesis. You cannot relive the past to see if you are correct. No human experiences these vast periods of time first hand. In this sense, geology is not a true science.

I think I am done here.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 23:11 #24

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Geology is more of an exact science than guessing what people in ancient times meant when they said "honey" but meant something else entirely.
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Worlds in Collision - Immanuel Velikovsky 14 Jul 2016 23:48 #25

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fidelio wrote:
It doesnt seem like they pinpoint anything exactly. I never claimed they did.

But then it is just armwaiving, nothing serious. If after research there is no clear evidence of a fixed period when "all over the world" in "all traditions" and supported by "all the available evidence, physical first" there is no clear result, then the whole book is fantasy. That's ok, but then it cannot be a serious source of a very controversial idea.
I have already said the primary evidence may not be trustworthy if there are unexplained factors.

That is reasoning the wrong way around. The primary evidence is the basis. If the stories do not confirm that evidence, then they are what they are; stories. Nice to read, a good collection of stories around the world is always a good piece of reading, but it doesn't prove anything and less a hypothesis that puts "Venus as a kind of comet out of Jupiter" or something as outlandish as that.
If you use geology to understand what happened in the past, you will not be able to perform an experiment which confirms your hypothesis.

Huh? A hypothesis is turned into a theory if it's supported by experiments, or in historical research, other evidence. If the evidence is absent, not convincing, inconclusive or in the wrong timespan, then indeed the hypothesis cannot be confirmed and it becomes just an idea, nothing more.
You cannot relive the past to see if you are correct. No human experiences these vast periods of time first hand.

The oral traditions and stories should reflect the past, there's no need to "relive" it, or rather you do that by comparing those stories.
In this sense, geology is not a true science.

You are discarding a complete branch of natural sciences because it doesn't fit your idea? :larf:

That is like saying the medical science is "not a true science" because "in the books of the Veda it is said that with herb A you can cure disease X, while lab experiments show that that cure is not working".
I think I am done here.

You thought I would accept the idea of this book right away, where even the whole basis is flawed and inverted? You though I'd throw away the geological science because it doesn't fit an untested hypothesis?
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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