TOPIC: Nationalist Conspiracy Theories vs the EU

Well Frog, I'm fairly disappointed with that, I thought you may have considered some of the points I raised but it appears you've simply
chosen to repeat, in greater depth (with more tangents) some of your previous erroneous conclusions, thus insulting my intelligence by providing more fallacious arguments.
Assumption #1, there would be evidence of this which there isn't, and one might suppose by the popularity of sugar, fruit and spices that the british people in general paid no mind to how these things were obtainedHuman psyche has not "been well understood for thousands of years" at all, that's a ridiculous statement that negatively colours the entire course of history within your narrative.
Science STILL doesn't particularly well understand the psyche.
Now the State is a group of occultists
There's not much I can do with this, it's clear your ideology hinges on not actually understanding these things (State and People) logically, you choose rather to reproduce them in a purely subjective context, but you feel you have some secret knowledge so you're clearly unwilling to consider other perspectives to your own.
I agree with the point people and the state are not the same though, people use the state, the State is a creation of the people.
"the state" does not create anything, Parliament creates laws, Classes existed before "the State", people create divisions, you are creating divisions, like Reality // The State is autonomous, common sense // Paranoid conspiracy theories, reason // unreason.
Parliament is composed of individuals, as are parties, the state is comprised of parties and individuals, this is the Public Sphere, although in Britain, home of the international Bourgeoisie, the Private Sphere of interests completely "more or less" dominates the public.

Essentially you've obtained this subjectivized opinion you're repeating to me from unregulated sources in the internet.
C'mon I was being sarcastic and purposely a little controversial, of course I accept basic historical facts, let me dispel your misinterpretation; Britain traded it's ill gotten gains, industrially produced textiles, and exported it's racist, greedy ideology of capitalism all over the word.
What do you mean? If Britain can't compete with China, France, Germany, India, Brazil, Turkey, Azerbaijan, emerging African Governments etc it will bomb, invade or remove them?
You don't think an international perspective is justified in the 21st century in a thread about the EU?
If not now then when
As I see it it's the only realistic perspective in this day in age, we're one species on one planet, European nations are an invention of the period in history between 1000 and 1700, let's move beyond that period of constant war and competition into a new age of cooperation beyond war, and tackle the real issues of concern together.
Again these assumptions rarely correlate or align with objective reality.
Britain trades mainly externally by necessity really, being that it completely crippled it's own working class and industrial output 30years ago.

It's mainly corporations (some from within the EU) that hire UK financial services (the dominant part of the sector) without these things the UK economy would be nothing, the EU and tories want a referendum so they can avoid the tax increases on multinational corporations, regulation of the banking sector, and remain a viable tax haven for billionaires, it's not some idealistic nationalist sentiment from them.
The "British Aristocracy" is not a homogeneous thing, there are plenty of "British Aristocrats" who have always impeded the progress of a European Union, preferring an Anglo-American one, or none at all, but thankfully they are a dying and fairly irrelevant minority.
I might check it out but I'm quite busy at the moment.

I think this is all quite arrogant and assumptive of you tbh, you assume I've never heard conspiracy theories about the EU?
Britain clearly took a role in the EU at a later stage to combat German/French supremacy and dominance in Europe, they did this through Le Cercle, which can only be described as the UK Conservative establishment's attempt to undermine the process of building a Unified and Equality based Europe, instead opting to negotiate for Britain to have special privileges, all the rights none of the responsibilities, and a special position on account of their economic, and Imperial prestige.

You should try pick up some second hand books by Brian Crozier who explains all this relates to the Cold War, the US and UK were operating in the EU to suppress the potential for socialism, public interests, to overide and curtail the primacy of private/bourgeois interests. The West won the Cold war, Capitalist ideology took global eminence, this inhibited the public spheres and negatively influenced the last 40 or so years of history.

Want evidence of how this panned out?
Try British and American banks almost destroying the world economy, Britain destroying it's own working class and organized Labour, Reaganomics and the refusal of Anti-Statist Tory politicians to Subsidize key industrial infrastructure (like coal mining), preferring instead to open such things to American and multinational corporate abuse, (look how Germany subsidizes many industries and has a far healthier economy than England).

The British Ideology contaminated the EU, hell the British approach to global economy contaminated the EU, leadiing to the bankruptcy of heavily borrowing nations and collapse of the financial sector.
This was private corporations and nation states with corrupt government officials (who's private interests came before the public interest) i t's a real world playing out of individual greed, driven by accumulation without thought to the consequences to others, (or your own long term prosperity).

One cannot stress the importance of that distinction between the public and the private spheres enough, which sphere dominates the shape and colour of the state.

Part 2 on it's way.

The State
I said:British legislation is created in Parliament, Parliament is divided, for this explanation I will deal only with the "truly" british side, the Conservative side, legislation from this side is predominantly conceived to restrict the power of Organized labour, the working classes (civil liberties for workers in the UK are among the worst in Europe), and also to restrict the progress of British people, ie opposing Gay Marriage, opposing European Human Rights and various equality legislation from Europe.

So what I mean is British conservatism conceives of Legislation with the idea of protecting, sustaining and reinventing inequalities, we couldn't pass a law disbanding the Monarchy because the Queen would have to give her assent, only in the EU will Britain move into the 19th and 20th centuries
Nope people in Britain, and mainly only the Tory party, although UKIP would be twice as bad.
The State isn't only the legal system, it is the organ for administrating our legal, economic and political systems, the state was created by human beings to do that.The Greek head of state was taking kickbacks from private companies and using offshore banking along with many in his nation's cabinet.
Private companies and corrupt politicians serving their private interests over the public interests created this situation.
The ECB has bailed out these countries so their societies don't completely collapse under the greed of private individuals and financial institutions.
www.icij.org/search/node/greek
The EU is fundamentally not the cause of this, Nation states speculating and competing with each other to be the most favourable to the banking industry is more of a cause..At least the EU is trying to sort this out which is more than is to be said for Britain which is giving these corrupt millionaires tax cuts and conserving their freedom to operate Tax havens throughout their former Empire.

Yes forwards not backwards.

The EU is far from a "fascist/marxist/communist state", two of those things are totally incompatible, you couldn't have a "Marxist" communist state while there is still a Capitalist economic system, Communism is the transcendence of Capitalism in Marxism, something I think you'll agree is still a little way off?

Fascism and Marxism are completely incompatible, Fascism is fundamentally opposed to the MAterialist, Scientific Social methodology of Marx, the analysis of classes, the mode of production and history of society and people, Fascism adheres to Spontaneity and romantic ideals of spritual and violent resistance to the very things Marxism advances.
I think that's up for debate, I'd say it is, completely a reflection of the primacy of private interests in the people's minds, and the wilful ignorance and non participation of a large percentage of the people in the public sphere.
I think you mean reactive, reactionary means backwards seeking, opposed to progress, Fascism encourages spontaneity and emotional, populist rhetoric and is a regressive ideology.

British people having a long scholastic history of metaphysics reason religiously and are religiously servile/moralistic despite professing atheism, which is to say they pay little regard for actual material conditions, objective realities, preferring instead subjective reified concepts, this as a subject is not much written about, or discussed in CT literature, imo that's because CT's are predominantly Anglo-American, thus based on various anti-materialist principles themselves.

That'll do for now, about half remains of your response, though it wasn't as much a response per se as a reinvigorated attempt to purvey your ideology.

You can wait for the rest i might do it in an hour or two or respond it's up to you.
I'm kind of disappointed you aren't willing to mediate some of your positions and are purely anti-thetical to the prospect of an EU, one wonders what sort of Synthesis you have in mind as an alternative? and what you think you'll actually get?

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote: The above statement is absolute Bollox!
I advise you to read about a subject area before you start to pontificate about it.

On Child Labour and the WorkhouseAllowing something to be done is not doing something, which is to say why are you trying to blame the government for the industrial exploitation of women, children and the poor by private corporations?

You say the state stopped slavery because of some illuminated people working together to influence the state, I agree, that is why I said the State is a tool, not an autonomous entity it can serve the public interest or people's private interest.
This is absurd, are you blaming the British state for the exploitation of children in foreign sweatshops by private corporations?
The tories have done a lot to encourage industry, they have decimated worker's rights, forced people onto the streets, frozen benefits increases, brought in charges for people to bring an unfair dismissal claim to court, made it easier for bosses to fire workers, brought in Apprenticeship schemes (a lawful subversion of the NMW), decreased Tax to 45p on the £1 for the richest, they have also and continue to lobby the EU for relaxed tax and banking laws which will bring in more administrative and financial services jobs, British industry is predominantly in the Financial services industry.
Lib Dems are the airy fairy centrists that reflect the average Britain, but the average Britain doesn't regularly vote for them and is apparently swung either to Red or Blue depending on the Media portrayal.

People in Britain operate for their whole lives in the Private Sphere, very few have more than a passing interest in the Public sphere, this is reflected in Politics where private interests and the interests of private competing individuals outweigh the public interest.
I don't disagree, Murdoch towers and Lord Rothermere's Right Wing rag the Daily Heil are doing a grand job, are you aware the Sun and the Daily Mail are Britain's best selling papers?

What a disgusting place it is.

Things will change drastically for the worse under UKIP, are you aware of how much it would cost to pull out of the EU?
They say they'll completely cut foreign Aid though (goodbye Nigeria Hello Islamic caliphate of North Africa) so perhaps that will pay for it, I have no idea why you think it's a good thing to "get out of Europe", is that even achievable, what are they doing to do put Nigel Farage on a tug boat and attach some chains around big Ben, pulling us further into the North Atlantic beyond Ireland?

We are and always have been part of Europe the continent, the conservative establishment and blind patriots just won't accept it.

Most the White baby-boomers voting for UKIP probably have second homes abroad anyway, infact the few I know certainly do, so it probably doesn't bother them that the entire country and living standards will be dragged 100years into the past upon leaving the EU, they can just move abroad.

There is also the large percentage of UKIP votes that vote for them exclusively because of Fox hunting.

There is a big difference between a land mas and a political structure, and to categorise all opposition to the EU as being of the right is far from the truth.
I personally don't care which way the argument goes as it is for me a choice of evils. But US in your opposition you are overplaying your cards with constant wild unfounded statements, think about it, are you trying to suppress the other side, or are you trying to persuade?
At the moment you seem to be aiming for an extreme position which denies all opposition. Which is fine if you want that, but you will then have to accept it is you alone verse the rest of the world. However if you are trying to persuade, you don't need to use sweeping terms like 'Truly British' which as they have no explanation have no meaning, and yet are used to underpin your argument, this results in your entire thesis falling apart.

I'm trying to understand how DG and Frog have come to these unfounded speculative conclusions about so much including the EU.

At the moment they are clearly coming across as fundamentalists so I'm trying to encourage them to elaborate on the factual basis of their position in the hope that it may become intelligible to someone who isn't brainwashed by Conspiracy Theories.

If you oppose the EU from the left or centre ground feel free to contribute your opinion, if you leave up to Frog and DG then any readers will imagine this is a nationalist forum.

Yes but it was you who set the agenda that opposition to the EU is nationalist, and have used your presumption to fix the argument as either Britain or Europe.
PS
If it is possible to say the Brits are Nationalist and ignore they comprise a number of nations, it is also possible to concieve of a nationalist Europe.

Let me just clarify something once and for all, and I know I speak for Frog & Novum also.

We post as members here....our personal views/opinions are our own and in no way reflect or implicate any 'policy' as such for TZ.

jonb wrote:
Not at all I was referring to the specific example of Frog in my thread about the EU.

Nobody has yet to explain why the EU is bad, or why they are still so fundamentally opposed to it.
Some talk of it being a fascist marxist commie state, the magna carta and some legal conspiracies promulgated by the likes of Ray St Clair are all i've had thus far, oh yes and extremely insulting accusations and insults...But I'm not complaining about that, just trying to elucidate how Frog and DG might make some sense and not just come across as ranting paranoid nationalists

If liking & identifying with my 'English-ness' makes me a nationalist, then I am one.

What is it people don't get about this? Spanish people like being Spanish, French people like being French, Greek people like being Greek, etc etc etc. Ask them.

We don't want to be homogenised 'Europeans' ffs.

I had all this bollocks over on SZ, where oioioi said to me that he ''doesn't identify with being English in any way & can't understand the mentality of people that do'' etc.....then just a day later in a separate thread he was banging on about how ''proud of his Mancunian roots/identity'' he is.

jonb wrote:
@Jonb,

Would you be so kind as to clarify your intended meaning in your post as it appears that the thank you button is being used to imply there are two possible interpretations. I think I get which comment you're referring to but some additional clarity maybe helpful.

Thanks in advance

@DG

I would hope that everyone that uses this site is aware that we post as members with our own individual opinions which may or may not be in agreement at times. And that our contributions are in no way intended to be construed as the opinions of TZ or any other members here.

Personally speaking I have no desire to cloak myself in Englishness and have no particular allegiance to it as a geographic location. I have split loyalties with respect to national identity and neither really holds any real value for me. Having said that I understand the value of community and that we as people have a responsibility towards other members of our communities wherever we happen to be at the time geographically.

I'm pro every nation retaining it's cultural identity and unique perspective on life whether I agree with their views or not, provided those views are not being imposed on other nations violently or economically etc.

This thread has been titled to invoke a particular preconception, and feed on predefined emotive responses which have been indoctrinated in to people. This has been done for a reason, and it's purely a device, in an attempt to prevent people from using reason and logic to form a rational opinion, by someone intent on establishing their own agenda at the expense of reason. It's nothing more than intellectual trickery which actually only works in the absence of intellect. It also serves as a red flag for anyone reading, which indicates that the author is attempting to distract the reader from something, while the authors tries to lead the reader off on a journey into lala land.

Humm I would like to think that people reading here are smart enough not to fall for such intellectually corrupt shenanigans.

There is a history of working class British resistance to the crown that is stamped underfoot by the 'Daily mail' and some elements of the left which I find very upsetting, because it is a strong denial of who I am.

I would recommend that any one interested downloads this file and distribute it widely.
PDF Document Abduction of Europe Author: Z. Tóth Csaba Download Full Version

The United States of Europe on the eve of the parliament of peace
By: W.T Stead
Download Book or Read on line
William Thomas Stead Wiki

W Averell Harriman
Source: www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/harriman.htm#7
W.A Harriman Skull and Bones member and Hitler financier...
Winston Churchill

Source: http://www.wewantourcountryback.co.uk/pagecontent1.html

THE EU AND THE UK

The European Union was originally called the European Economic Community and we were led to believe it was set up to be a trading agreement between member states. There were three main sticking points for the UK:

(1) Our traditional bonds with the countries of the Commonwealth,
(2) Refusal to join a customs union and wanted to maintain a free trade and
(3) We were opposed to the long term aim of surrendering national sovereignty.

When the Heath Government was negotiating our entry Edward Heath instructed Sir Con O'Neil, the UK's chief negotiator, to 'Swallow it whole and swallow it now! In other words accept whatever conditions they offer. Membership was sealed when the UK joined in 1973.

Before entry Edward Heath wrote to his Lord Chancellor, Lord Kilmuir, and asked him if there were any Constitutional limitations on joining the EEC? In his reply Lord Kilmuir stated: 'I agree with you that there are important constitutional issues involved'. He went on to say: 'I have no doubt that if we do sign the treaty, we shall suffer some loss of sovereignty' and confirmed this by this by making these three points:

Parliament would be required to surrender some of its functions to the organs of the community.
The Crown would be called on to transfer part of its treaty-making power to those organs of the community.
Our courts of law would be sacrificed to some degree of independence by becoming subordinate in certain respects to the European Court of Justice.

...

We joined the EU (EEC) in 1972. After 38 years inside we now know:
The European Union's six constitutional treaties build a three-tier politburo dictatorship.
The EU has the laws of a police state - which are being increasingly enforced.
The EU's 120,000 regulations will bring us a soviet style command economy and abject poverty.
Unelected EU dictators will control the nuclear weapons of former nations of Britain and France.
The EU's illegal six treaties will compel us to hand over all our armed forces to the EU.
Our armed forces and police have been told they will swear a new oath to the EU, or be fired.
The EU's 120,000 regulations will rigidly control our personal lives - more than any nation in history.
EU regulations now cost us £100 billion a year. (Better Regulation Commission annual report 2005)
When enforced, those illegal regulations will destroy most of our 4.5 million small businesses.
Up to 13.5 million will be unemployed after EU regulations close small businesses.
The 120,000 regulations will make us subject to continual arrest (SOCPA 2005).
There are now 3,095 "Crimes against the EU state" on the British statute book.
The EU's Constitutional treaties replaced the British Constitution on 1st January 2009.
The independent nation of Britain was finally abolished by the Lisbon Treaty on 1st Jan 2009.
EU Bilderbergers control our parties: Ken Clarke, Maude, Cameron, Millibands, Mandelson, Clegg
The EU's Road Pricing and then ID chips will keep the state informed of our exact position.
Huge taxes/fines by the EU's Road Pricing, Congestion Charging and global warming policies.
The EU Regionalisation Plan will abolish Englfand and our 48 counties in favour of 9 EU regions.
The 9 EU regions will report direct to Brussels, not to Westminster, which will be defunct.
The EU Regionalisation Plan will abolish our 19,579 councillors.
British common law mainly replaced by EU corpus Juris by 1992. Government is now above the law.
Police have shot 30 innocent people dead since 1992 and have not been successfully prosecuted.
1,100 deaths in police custody since 1992 and no successful prosecutions.
Police Shoot to Kill policy now in force; illegal under British common law, OK under EU corpus juris.
EU conceived in Germany from 22nd June 1940 as the EEC - speech by Hermann Goering.
First EEC conference Berlin University 1942, 13 nation summit Berlin 1943 run by von Ribbentrop
After fall of Germany, the Germans switched the EU from a Nazi to a communist basis in 1946.
Hitler's Deutsche Verteiderungs Dienst Intelligence Department (DVD) still controls EU development.
Edward Heath, Geoffrey Rippon, Roy Jenkins recruited by the DVD in 1958 as saboteurs.
DVD has arranged finance to put pro-EU ownerships into British newspaper groups.
EU has been sabotaging Britain with German Frankfurt School techniques since the 1950's.
The EU's main subversive organisations in Britain are senior Freemasonry and Common Purpose
The EU's Common Purpose (CP) has trained 40,000 local leaders for "the post democratic era"
CP controls the NHS, and is wrecking it with Frankfurt subversion techniques (eg continual change).
Common Purpose has 400 staff inside the BBC censoring out anti-EU news and and current affairs.
Common Purpose has staff in hundreds of local newspapers censoring out anti-EU news
Common Purpose is transferring power from councillors to the unelected council executives.
Common Purpose has built the EU gravy trains inside local and national government.
CP and Freemasonry snatch 4,500 children a year from good parents for forced adoption.
CP has built most of Britain's 8,500 quangos costing us £167 billion pa (Cabinet Office 2007 figs)
These quangos bribe compliant, pro EU local officials and businessmen with £150,000+ salaries.
All our judges are now Freemasons, which is why British justice and our courts are utterly corrupt.
The EU is corrupt and cannot account for 95% of its expenditure (yes, ninety five % lost)
The EU has over 200,000 offshore bank accounts from which it pays bribes.
We now lose £45 billion a year trading with the EU. Outside, we had an even balance of payments.
EU Constitution is similar to the Soviet. And EU Commissioners similar to Soviet Politburo members.
The EU parliament is a sham with no power - just like the old Soviet parliament.
The leadership of the Conservative Party has been controlled by EU Bilderbergers since the 1960's.
The Labour and Lib Dem leaderships EU controlled for 20 years - that's why your vote doesn't count.
The Amsterdam Treaty 1997 gave the EU control of our immigration, now running at 2.6 million pa.
Our infrastructure can't cope with the 10 million immigrants the EU has let in since 1997.
380,000 highly qualified British emigrate annually to escape from the EU and its overcrowding.
The EU and their Bilderbergers have moved 50,000 pro-EU people, freemasons and CP up into all positions of power over 40 years. You don't progress in British government unless you are pro-EU.

...

Listen to Norman Reddaway talk about the IRD (Information Research Department) subversion to facilitate the United Kingdom's joining of the EEC - Common Market - EU State. Prior to this 70% of the people were against membership! CIA Funded campaign!

Direct from the mouth of Norman Reddaway "Letters to the times" Europe or Bust!

Just listen to this >> www.acasefortreason.org.uk/images/documents/Shoe-horned%20into%20the%20EU/sound%20track.wav

Nothing like a CIA funded British government "knobbling" campaign to screw the British people

Reddaway, Tommy Tucker, Lord Chumley and his wheelchair bound secretary. You couldn't make this shit up!

Please download this file and spread it widely.

Also visit:
A Case for Treason website.
We Want Our Country Back website

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote: To clarify, if the people of the past were "much like the people of today", then they would be "against their leaders" in word and thought, but not in action..cursing the evil government out of one side of their mouth, enjoying access to international commodities that their government brings/ consuming and paying for them ceaselessly, out of the other.

What do you think about the distinction between Public and Private spheres of Interest Frog?

Do they both exist in another Sphere, do they interact, is one dominant over the other?

Is that respectful Frog?
Perhaps mutual respect is not a forum policy here, but that's a fairly slanderous accusation
This thread was named after your earlier posts on this subject..Which are nationalist conspiracy theories that assert some Marxist Fascist Commie takeover of national sovereignty and "english common law" etc etc, that is a nationalist conspiracy theory

Good choice of quotes, Churchill and Skull and Bones conspiracy theories, great way to dispel the accusation of being a Nationalist Conspiracy theorist.

Let's call a spade a spade eh?

DG:Wow.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:

Peasants revolt

The Diggers

The bloody Assizes

Newgate riots

Tolpuddle Martyrs

Peterloo Massacre

Luddites

Chartists

General strike

Jarrow Marchers

Ban the Bomb

Grosvenor Square riot

Poll tax

Anti capitalism

Want more Proof?

Excellent post there jonb pictures speak a thousand words indeed! And you certainly can't argue with those images.