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TOPIC: Biocentrism

Biocentrism 22 Jul 2014 20:50 #1

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Apologies for posting someone with an annoying tone of voice.


The information is here if you want to read about it biocentricity.net/



It's quite 'out there' stuff for such a mainstream kind of scientist.


:wissl:

Who is Robert Lanza

Robert Lanza, M. D. is considered one of the leading scientists in the world. He is currently Chief Scientific Officer at Advanced Cell Technology, and Adjunct Professor at Wake Forest University School of Medicine. He has hundreds of publications and inventions, and over 30 scientific books: among them, “Principles of Tissue Engineering,” which is recognized as the definitive reference in the field. Others include One World: The Health & Survival of the Human Species in the 21st Century (Foreword by former President and Nobel laureate Jimmy Carter), and the “Handbook of Stem Cells” and “Essentials of Stem Cell Biology,” which are considered the definitive references in stem cell research.

Dr. Lanza received his BA and MD degrees from the University of Pennsylvania, where he was both a University Scholar and Benjamin Franklin Scholar. He was also a Fulbright Scholar, and was part of the team that cloned the world’s first human embryo, as well as the first to successfully generate stem cells from adults using somatic-cell nuclear transfer (therapeutic cloning). Dr. Lanza’s work has been crucial to our understanding nuclear transfer and stem cell biology. In 2001 he was also the first to clone an endangered species (a Gaur), and in 2003, he cloned an endangered wild ox (a Banteng) from the frozen skin cells of an animal that had died at the San Diego Zoo nearly a quarter-of-a-century earlier.
www.robertlanza.com/who-is-robert-lanza/

It might be complete bullshit but I just can't stop thinking about it.
:dunno:
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Biocentrism 22 Jul 2014 20:54 #2

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Could you summarise please?
It was always going to happen!!
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Biocentrism 22 Jul 2014 21:57 #3

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wolfy wrote:
Could you summarise please?

This is from the webpage.
What is the biocentric universe theory?

The biocentric universe theory is a radical change in the way we view the world and our place in it. It proposes that the physical universe evolves in tandem with the evolution of Earthly life. The universe exists specifically in relation to us — similar to how the position and appearance of a rainbow is dependent upon the position of the person seeing it, and is not a fixed, absolute object. According to biocentricity, the universe is incredibly complex not because it just is, but rather, because the biological organisms observing it have become incredibly complex. Today the universe appears in a highly defined, information-rich form to us humans, a species that has not only achieved an advanced form of consciousness, but has also developed the technology to probe the universe to extremely far distances as well as to high degrees of precision.

Most of us have been taught that the universe is a collection of particles "out there" — atoms and molecules that have been around far longer than the Earth — and that billions of years ago, some of them came together to create the first life forms. Biocentricity considers these ideas to be unfounded assumptions, not supported by any empirical evidence. It explains how the universe could have an extremely simple beginning, while today appearing to be astonishingly complex as well as precisely "fine-tuned" for the existence of matter (and life). Currently popular theories require huge numbers of unobservable multiple universes, alien or supernatural intelligent designers, or at least incredibly good fortune to explain why we find ourselves in a universe fit for life. These untestable inventions of the human imagination are completely unnecessary in a biocentric universe.

The hypothesis that "life creates the universe" was first proposed by the pioneering biologist Robert Lanza in 2007, based on ideas by the great 20th century physicist John Archibald Wheeler. While Lanza has pursued a mystical interpretation of this concept (one that has been broadly ignored by the physics community), the version described here has been developed to interface well with current lines of research, employing more rigorous language and drawing on an established theoretical foundation known as relational quantum mechanics.

However I add this bit.
What is the biocentric universe theory?
Space and time, let's just call it ST for convenience.
ST is a platform of perception that humans project in order to process information.
No information can be processed unless we have a stage to be able to process it on, into a type of order.

So the 'universe' does not exist until it has been seen, in other words it' goes like this.

In your head, my head, everyone's head is a perception that all life has agreed upon, when life first came about it would only have a perception as large as it can see, so a tiny bacteria would have a perception of a tiny amount of sludge.
At that point the universe is sludge.
When we look back using scientific equipment we perceive the universe as we do now, back then, it can be tracked, so even if the first state of universe was sludge perceived by bacteria, we would view the universe using the available devices as we perceive it now with our greater perception.

So as the first life form was replaced by/mutated into a superior one, the universe expanded as form two had greater perception than form one.

Everything is now perceived as an expansion of form ones first perception.

In addition to this, you we need to think this over...
No light enters the human brain, no light gets into the dark skull bone, when you see something such as a bird, your think your eye sees something in front of you, it does not.
Your eye takes photons of light from an object, let's say a bird. The photons are not reflective, they need a reflective surface to create light on.
There is not reflective surfaces in your brain, the photons go to the back of your eye and then get transferred into electricity and transported to the back of your dark brain where an image in conjured up. The same applies for all senses.
Everything you ever see is in your brain, when you look at the room where you live, your brain is not in the room, the room is in your brain.

Lanza is using the constructs of ST to make us understand that it's like a shell on a turtles back, we carry ST in our consciousness's. Once that is accepted then it's easier to accept that everything else is in our 'minds' too.
Our minds will be in agreement about perception because they are linked by the perceptions of all our ancestors.

It's easier to understand than explain.
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Biocentrism 22 Jul 2014 22:28 #4

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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 03:25 #5

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The World Is Inside Your Brain

By Harun Yahya
Secret Beyond Matter

When you look out of the window, you think that you see an image with your eyes, as this is the way that you have been taught to think. However, in reality this is not how it works, because you do not see the world with your eyes. You see the image created in your brains. This is not a prediction, nor a philosophical speculation, but the scientific truth.

This concept can be better understood when we realize how the visual system operates. The eye is responsible for transforming light into an electric signal by means of the cells in the retina. This electrical signal reaches the sight center in the brain. The signals create the vision you see when you look out of the window. In other words, the sights you see are created in your brain.

You see the image in your brain, not the view outside the window. For example, in the picture shown on the right hand side, the light reaches the eyes of the person from outside. This light passes to the small sight center located at the back of the brain after the cells in the eyes transform it into electrical signals. It is these electrical signals which form the picture in the brain. In reality when we open the brain, we wouldn't be able to see any image. However, some kind of consciousness in the mind receives electrical signals in the form of an image. The brain perceives electrical signals in the form of an image, yet it has no eye, eye cells, or retina. So, to whom does the consciousness in the brain belong?

The same question can be asked about the book you are reading now. The light coming to your eyes is converted into electrical signals and reaches your brain, where the view of the book is created. In other words, the book you are reading right now is not outside you, it is actually inside you, in the sight center in the back of your brain. Since you feel the hardness of the book with your hands, you might think that the book is outside you. However, this feeling of hardness also originates in the brain. The nerves on your fingertips transmit electrical information to the touch center in your brain. And when you touch the book, you feel the hardness and intensity of it, the slipperiness of the pages, the texture of the cover and the sharpness of the edge of the pages, all within your brain.

In reality however, you can never touch the real nature of the book. Even though you think that you're touching the book, it is your brain that perceives the tactile sensations. In addition, you do not even know if this book exists as a material thing outside of your brain. You merely interpret the image of the book within your brain. However, you should not be tricked by the fact that a writer wrote this book, the pages were designed by a computer and printed by a publisher. The things that will be explained in due course will show you that the people, computers and the publishers in every stages of the production of this book are only visions that appear in your brain, and you will never know whether or not they exist outside of your brain.

We can therefore conclude that everything we see, touch and hear merely exists in our brains. This is a scientific truth, proven with scientific evidence. The significant point is the answer to the question asked above, which this scientific truth has led us to ask;

Who is it that has no eye, but watches sights through a window in our brains and enjoys or becomes anxious from these sights? This will be explained in the following sites.

We acknowledge that all the individual features of the world are experienced through our sense organs. The information that reaches us through those organs is converted into electrical signals, and the individual parts of our brain analyze and process these signals. After this interpreting process takes place inside our brain, we will, for example, see a book, taste a strawberry, smell a flower, feel the texture of a silk fabric or hear leaves shaking in the wind.

We have been taught that we are touching the cloth outside of our body, reading a book that is 30 cm (1 ft) away from us, smelling the trees that are far away from us, or hearing the shaking of the leaves that are far above us. However, this is all in our imagination. All of these things are happening within our brains.

At this point we encounter another surprising fact; that there are, in fact, no colors, voices or visions within our brain. All that can be found in our brains are electrical signals. This is not a philosophical speculation. This is simply a scientific description of the functions of our perceptions. In her book Mapping The Mind, Rita Carter explains the way we perceive the world as follows:

Each one [of the sense organs] is intricately adapted to deal with its own type of stimulus: molecules, waves or vibrations. But the answer does not lie here, because despite their wonderful variety, each organ does essentially the same job: it translates its particular type of stimulus into electrical pulses. A pulse is a pulse is a pulse. It is not the colour red, or the first notes of Beethoven's Fifth-it is a bit of electrical energy. Indeed, rather than discriminating one type of sensory input from another, the sense organs actually make them more alike.

All sensory stimuli, then enter the brain in more or less undifferentiated form as a stream of electrical pulses created by neurons firing, domino-fashion, along a certain route. This is all that happens. There is no reverse transformer that at some stage turns this electrical activity back into light waves or molecules. What makes one stream into vision and another into smell depends, rather, on which neurons are stimulated.1

In other words, all of our feelings and perceptions about the world (smells, visions, tastes etc.) are comprised of the same material, that is, electrical signals. Moreover, our brain is what makes these signals meaningful for us, and interprets these signals as senses of smell, taste, vision, sound or touch. It is a stunning fact that the brain, which is made of wet meat, can know which electrical signal should be interpreted as smell and which one as vision, and can convert the same material into different senses and feelings.

Let us now consider our sense organs, and how each one perceives the world.

It's Not Our Eyes That See, It Is Our Brain

Because of the indoctrination that we receive throughout our lives, we imagine that we see the whole world with our eyes. Eventually, we usually conclude that our eyes are the windows that open up to the world. However, science shows us that we do not see through our eyes. The millions of nerve cells inside the eyes are responsible for sending a message to the brain, as if down a cable, in order to make "seeing" happen. If we analyze the information we learned in high school, it becomes easier for us to understand the reality of vision.

The light reflecting off an object passes through the lens of the eye and causes an upside-down image on the retina at the back of the eyeball. After some chemical operations carried out by retinal rods and cones, this vision becomes an electrical impulse. This impulse is then sent through connections in the nervous system to the back of the brain. The brain converts this flow into a meaningful, three-dimensional vision.

For example, when you watch children playing in a park, you are not seeing the children and the park with your eyes, because the image of this view forms not before your eyes, but at the back of your brain.

Even though we have given a simple explanation, in reality the physiology of vision is an extraordinary operation. Without fail, light is converted into electrical signals, and, subsequently, these electrical signals reveal a colorful, shining, three-dimensional world.
www.mindpowernews.com/WorldInsideYourBrain.htm
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 03:36 #6

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.................... :umm: ....................

www.secretbeyondmatter.com/
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 05:40 #7

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Thanks Blue_Tackler. I was reading this stuff several years ago and found it fascinating. Good stuff to bring to our attention.
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 05:58 #8

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Blue_Tackler wrote:

No information can be processed unless we have a stage to be able to process it on, into a type of order.

So the 'universe' does not exist until it has been seen, in other words it' goes like this.

In your head, my head, everyone's head is a perception that all life has agreed upon, when life first came about it would only have a perception as large as it can see, so a tiny bacteria would have a perception of a tiny amount of sludge.
At that point the universe is sludge.
When we look back using scientific equipment we perceive the universe as we do now, back then, it can be tracked, so even if the first state of universe was sludge perceived by bacteria, we would view the universe using the available devices as we perceive it now with our greater perception.

So as the first life form was replaced by/mutated into a superior one, the universe expanded as form two had greater perception than form one.

Everything is now perceived as an expansion of form ones first perception.

The problem that I have with these theories that suggest that nothing exists without perception, is this:

How did anything exist before it was perceived?

To say the universe doesn't exist without my perception seems highly egocentric to me, I feel the universe exists perfectly well without me.

What was the universe doing before life as we know it came along to perceive it?
In addition to this, you we need to think this over...
No light enters the human brain, no light gets into the dark skull bone, when you see something such as a bird, your think your eye sees something in front of you, it does not.
Your eye takes photons of light from an object, let's say a bird. The photons are not reflective, they need a reflective surface to create light on.
There is not reflective surfaces in your brain, the photons go to the back of your eye and then get transferred into electricity and transported to the back of your dark brain where an image in conjured up. The same applies for all senses.
Everything you ever see is in your brain, when you look at the room where you live, your brain is not in the room, the room is in your brain.

Lanza is using the constructs of ST to make us understand that it's like a shell on a turtles back, we carry ST in our consciousness's. Once that is accepted then it's easier to accept that everything else is in our 'minds' too.
Our minds will be in agreement about perception because they are linked by the perceptions of all our ancestors.

It's easier to understand than explain.

Yes, all our senses do is carry electrical impulses to our brain, where they are decoded into a mental picture, just like a television does really, nothing particularly ground breaking about this.

Although the bird is still outside of our brain and does not rely on our brain for its existence.

With this in mind, how would you answer the age old philosophy question?

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to see it, does it still make a sound?
It was always going to happen!!
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 06:12 #9

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wolfy wrote:
What was the universe doing before life as we know it came along to perceive it?

You tell us. If it is not perceived, what is the universe actually doing? You're not seeing the irony of your statement, and that only furthers the logic posited by Blue_Tackler.
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 07:38 #10

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Aristarchus wrote:
You tell us. If it is not perceived, what is the universe actually doing? You're not seeing the irony of your statement, and that only furthers the logic posited by Blue_Tackler.

it is quite a simple answer.

The universe was evolving as it is now.

It didn't need our perception for anything.

I see the irony that you are inferring, that how can I say what is happening in a universe that I don't perceive, but it isn't irony, it is irrelevant.

the premise being put forward is that without my perception, nothing exists, which like I said before is pure ego centrism.

it is like shrodingers cat, the theory goes that because we don't know, we cant be sure so the cat is in two states simultaneously.

This is of course absolute nonsense, it is only ever alive or dead, the fact that we don't know doesn't alter reality, only our perception of it, which does not matter in the slightest.

Just as our perception is not needed, nor required for the universe to do its thing.
It was always going to happen!!
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 13:17 #11

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Well the theory of biocentrism is saying this wolfy.
The universe exists without you, of course it does, we're all perceiving it, all creatures perceive it to varying degrees of perception.
We all agree on the boundaries of perception.

What I'm saying about viewing the bird I think you have misunderstood what I meant, or perhaps I've not been clear.

Photons of light hit a part of an eye, the photons don't go into the brain,
This means that the photons hitting the eye have stimulated nerves in your eye to brain network,
What image is created in the back of your mind is now up to your network of neurotransmission, it has little to do with the bird.
Basically if there was no bird but simply a pattern of photons hitting your eye, a pattern the same as the bird, you would see the bird, even though no bird is there.
There is no bird there, we all agree on it that there is, what's really happening is that creatures are not absorbing information, they are projecting it, boundaries of perception can be altered by scientists if they can manipulate the rules.
Such as cloning.
The only way you can verify the existence of the bird is to use your senses, they rely on one another for verification, but they use the same method of brain imaging.
You can only perceive reality as per your detection tools, sight, smell, touch, etc..
This is where it's going to get complicated.
Not only is your brain not in the room that you think you are in, the room is in your brain.
But your body is in your brain, you need your brain to perceive your body, well in fact you need your mind to perceive your brain.
Nothing that you have ever experienced is not in your mind.
It's impossible to perceive anything without it being conjured in your mind, we can close our eyes and dream of bright colours etc... All in our minds.
So to recap, we all started from a common first life form, maybe it came out of another universe or something idk.
But it had some awareness so a tiny new universe appeared with it, or a fragment came with it.
When that life form mutated into superior beings, as minds expanded more universe is perceived.
To the point where we are now.
The reason the universe will still exist without you is because everything is making it exist.
We think we are waking about in a universe but no, we have it in our minds, we project it, we falsely think we absorb it.
That's the biggest illusion of all.
According to the theory.
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 13:21 #12

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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 13:30 #13

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Wolfy says
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to see it, does it still make a sound?

Sound is an organic perception, the tree falling makes no sound when it falls, only vibration, the sound is in our minds.
If we don't perceive the vibration we won't perceive the sound.
So missed or undetected vibration = no sound.

It's a bit like this.
Put a small dried pea in an empty jam jar, fix the lid onto the jar.
When the jar is shaken the pea is heard to rattle. it's because of the vibration.
If lots of soundproofing is added to the jar and then it's shaken again, we perceive no sound from vibration but know it's occurring.
it's an example of superposition.

Einstein says
“Now Besso” (an old friend) “has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us…know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

Quantum mechanics is beginning to crack the illusion.

PS to complicate things further we hear our inner voices and sound in our dreams.
It's dreaming that gives the game away.

According to Dr Lanza a brain could be adjusted so that it would see a 'green' 'red'. everything that was green now red.
The frog has not changed though huh?
See wolfy it's all in the napper.

I wish you'd watch his presentation on post #4 it's quite something when a top, well respected, and I do mean very well respected scientist states that non duality is the state of beings, this is not a crank or a meditating guru taking about his own arsehole, it's something that is backed up with scientific fact.
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 19:32 #14

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Blue_Tackler wrote:
Well the theory of biocentrism is saying this wolfy.
The universe exists without you, of course it does, we're all perceiving it, all creatures perceive it to varying degrees of perception.
We all agree on the boundaries of perception.

I totally disagree.

None of us agree on the boundaries of perception.
What I'm saying about viewing the bird I think you have misunderstood what I meant, or perhaps I've not been clear.

Photons of light hit a part of an eye, the photons don't go into the brain,
This means that the photons hitting the eye have stimulated nerves in your eye to brain network,
What image is created in the back of your mind is now up to your network of neurotransmission, it has little to do with the bird.
Basically if there was no bird but simply a pattern of photons hitting your eye, a pattern the same as the bird, you would see the bird, even though no bird is there.
There is no bird there, we all agree on it that there is, what's really happening is that creatures are not absorbing information, they are projecting it, boundaries of perception can be altered by scientists if they can manipulate the rules.
Such as cloning.
The only way you can verify the existence of the bird is to use your senses, they rely on one another for verification, but they use the same method of brain imaging.
You can only perceive reality as per your detection tools, sight, smell, touch, etc..
This is where it's going to get complicated.
Not only is your brain not in the room that you think you are in, the room is in your brain.
But your body is in your brain, you need your brain to perceive your body, well in fact you need your mind to perceive your brain.
Nothing that you have ever experienced is not in your mind.
It's impossible to perceive anything without it being conjured in your mind, we can close our eyes and dream of bright colours etc... All in our minds.
So to recap, we all started from a common first life form, maybe it came out of another universe or something idk.
But it had some awareness so a tiny new universe appeared with it, or a fragment came with it.
When that life form mutated into superior beings, as minds expanded more universe is perceived.
To the point where we are now.
The reason the universe will still exist without you is because everything is making it exist.
We think we are waking about in a universe but no, we have it in our minds, we project it, we falsely think we absorb it.
That's the biggest illusion of all.
According to the theory.

I have understood you.

but I disagree with you.

I think people put way too much importance on the brain, our whole body is capable of receiving and transmitting, our brain is just a tool, just like your heart and just like the brain, the heart has it's own receptors, we have just lost the skill in using it, and the liver, kidneys, etc etc etc, modern science has erroneously made us think that we are our brain, that our mind is in our brain, it isn't, it is everywhere.

I know this from personal existence, so I am weary of any theory that tries to trap us into our brain, where our ego can run amok.
It was always going to happen!!
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 19:36 #15

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Blue_Tackler wrote:
Sound is an organic perception, the tree falling makes no sound when it falls, only vibration, the sound is in our minds.
If we don't perceive the vibration we won't perceive the sound.
So missed or undetected vibration = no sound.

It's a bit like this.
Put a small dried pea in an empty jam jar, fix the lid onto the jar.
When the jar is shaken the pea is heard to rattle. it's because of the vibration.
If lots of soundproofing is added to the jar and then it's shaken again, we perceive no sound from vibration but know it's occurring.
it's an example of superposition.
Einstein says
“Now Besso” (an old friend) “has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us…know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

Good answer frothy :)

Whilst you are at it, answer the unstoppable force immovable object problem :)
Quantum mechanics is beginning to crack the illusion.

PS to complicate things further we hear our inner voices and sound in our dreams.
It's dreaming that gives the game away.

According to Dr Lanza a brain could be adjusted so that it would see a 'green' 'red'. everything that was green now red.
The frog has not changed though huh?
See wolfy it's all in the napper.

Again, I disagree.

The frog is only ever one colour, regardless of how I perceive it.
I wish you'd watch his presentation on post #4 it's quite something when a top, well respected, and I do mean very well respected scientist states that non duality is the state of beings, this is not a crank or a meditating guru taking about his own arsehole, it's something that is backed up with scientific fact.

I will when I get time cheers :)


Please give some thought to becoming frothy again............ :thumbup:
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Biocentrism 23 Jul 2014 21:08 #16

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Wolfy.

What Blue_Tackler is proposing falls within the field of experimentation:
Quantum physics and the wave particle duality is one of the strangest phenomenons know to mankind. Does the universe itself have a consciousness? This does seem strange but the more I have studied, I have found that there is a mind watching, everything. The fact is that in the quantum world, the rules change and it's if somehow they know they are being watched or experimented with and behave differently if the camera is on or off. Sometimes things are nothing until you say they are something and then become that thing.

rickzepeda.hubpages.com/hub/Quantum-Physics-Wave-Particle-Duality-Consciousness
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Biocentrism 24 Jul 2014 02:12 #17

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Aristarchus wrote:
Wolfy.

What Blue_Tackler is proposing falls within the field of experimentation:
Quantum physics and the wave particle duality is one of the strangest phenomenons know to mankind. Does the universe itself have a consciousness? This does seem strange but the more I have studied, I have found that there is a mind watching, everything. The fact is that in the quantum world, the rules change and it's if somehow they know they are being watched or experimented with and behave differently if the camera is on or off. Sometimes things are nothing until you say they are something and then become that thing.

rickzepeda.hubpages.com/hub/Quantum-Physics-Wave-Particle-Duality-Consciousness

Fact is I'm trying to explain the theory of biocentrism, it's not my theory, the bit that gets often missed is that the quantum world exists in a minute(tiny) particle environment.
What Lanza is saying is that the same rules apply in both worlds, the wave particle duality stuff etc...Exists in the big world too.

So the observation is the medium. Something like a shared projection.

@ wolfy I have questions for you, what thing have you ever seen that was not conjured up in your brain, and how do you remember seeing it?...
How do you know what a frog looks like, according to you they are external so not in your mind?
A frog may appear green, only when observed in a certain visual range, not for creatures using infrared vision, so it's colour is governed by the observer, do you think this not to be the case?

What creates the light that is used when images are in the brain, I mean it has been scientifically proved that the images are in the brain, the only doubt is if they only exist in the brain, rather than externally,. so if they are external how do they get illuminated in the brain, that bit of meat you call a tool has lights in it?

You say 'the brain is just a tool' but it's impossible to perceive anything outwith the brain, all senses lead to the brain, there is no way to prove that what you think you see externally, is external and not internal so your brain could conjure an image, this image then appears as though it's in front of you, like you see it externally, So when you touch or smell the image/object etc.. your brain makes you believe that you are feeling it externally, though it's internal, so are your senses.
Think about what happens on those hypnosis shows when people can be manipulated to believe they are doing things that they are not.

At the end of this discussion, whenever that will be, I think it will be concluded that we don't know what reality is, human perception has no way of checking itself, with many observation experiments they are difficult to conclude because the observer is always part of the experiment so can't perceive it from outside the experiment,
Because the experiment is trying to fathom out how human perception works, the experimenter is always subjective to the boundaries of the experiment and exists within them, so can't be objective.
Jews LARPing as Nazis
Last Edit: 24 Jul 2014 02:31 by Frothy.
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Biocentrism 24 Jul 2014 03:02 #18

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Blue_Tackler wrote:
What creates the light that is used when images are in the brain, I mean it has been scientifically proved that the images are in the brain, the only doubt is if they only exist in the brain, rather than externally,. so if they are external how do they get illuminated in the brain, that bit of meat you call a tool has lights in it?

Excellent point. I try to explain this to materialists all the time.
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Biocentrism 24 Jul 2014 04:16 #19

  • wolfy
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Aristarchus wrote:
Blue_Tackler wrote:
What creates the light that is used when images are in the brain, I mean it has been scientifically proved that the images are in the brain, the only doubt is if they only exist in the brain, rather than externally,. so if they are external how do they get illuminated in the brain, that bit of meat you call a tool has lights in it?

Excellent point. I try to explain this to materialists all the time.

It really is quite simple.

Imagine a pitch dark room with a television in it, where does the light come from to illuminate the television when it is turned on?

When you have your answer, you will also have the answer to your conundrum.
It was always going to happen!!
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Biocentrism 24 Jul 2014 04:31 #20

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Blue_Tackler wrote:

@ wolfy I have questions for you, what thing have you ever seen that was not conjured up in your brain, and how do you remember seeing it?...
How do you know what a frog looks like, according to you they are external so not in your mind?
A frog may appear green, only when observed in a certain visual range, not for creatures using infrared vision, so it's colour is governed by the observer, do you think this not to be the case?

You are putting too much emphasis on the brain and sight, like they are the only tools that we have for sensing things, ok our other senses are obvious, hearing, touch etc etc. I will answer your question though, but not through sight, I have FELT presences and experiences in various parts of my body, for example I have ominous senses in the pit of my stomach sometimes, for no apparent reason, or excited feelings in my chest, now you would probably say that my brain caused them and I would totally disagree.

Concerning the frog, it matters not what is viewing it, it could be a fly who can only see infrared, that doesn't mean the frog is infrared, it is still green, if a colour blind person sees it as red, the frog isn't red, it is still green, our perception changes nothing about the frog.
You say 'the brain is just a tool' but it's impossible to perceive anything outwith the brain, all senses lead to the brain, there is no way to prove that what you think you see externally, is external and not internal so your brain could conjure an image, this image then appears as though it's in front of you, like you see it externally, So when you touch or smell the image/object etc.. your brain makes you believe that you are feeling it externally, though it's internal, so are your senses.
Think about what happens on those hypnosis shows when people can be manipulated to believe they are doing things that they are not.

Again I totally disagree for reasons stated above, the brain is mainly a tool to make our body function, that's all, yes it has its own special qualities, but so do the other organs, where do you feel fear, in your head? Of course not.
At the end of this discussion, whenever that will be, I think it will be concluded that we don't know what reality is, human perception has no way of checking itself, with many observation experiments they are difficult to conclude because the observer is always part of the experiment so can't perceive it from outside the experiment,
Because the experiment is trying to fathom out how human perception works, the experimenter is always subjective to the boundaries of the experiment and exists within them, so can't be objective.

The double slit experiment has got an awful lot to answer for.
It was always going to happen!!
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