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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 02:49 #1

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There seems to be an awful lot of discussion on forums about the possible causes of Autism (mainly by people that know fuck all about it).

Anyway it's a reality so let's see if it has any good, as opposed to the 'neurotypical good' <<< if you peskies know what NT's are (yes it's you dumb asses).

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Last Edit: 11 Apr 2015 02:50 by Frothy.
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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 03:52 #2

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Talking as someone with autism are you frothy?

Are you like Nicole ... and it's all "So Whatever"!

A Nichole337 Original Song - So Whatever:
Last Edit: 11 Apr 2015 06:27 by Orangeaid.
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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 10:18 #3

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Simon Baron Cohen (cousin of Borat) came up with this 'Sally-Anne' test (as a clever professor) to show that autistic children have a lack of theory or mind compared to neurotypical children.

So now his clever test is used in assessments.

Where he's mistaken is that autistic children do comprehend theory of mind but have different communication concepts, towards the end of the test the child is asked 'where would she look for the marble'

Well if the marble is not in the basket, then the only place she can look for it is the box, she would not need to look for it if it was where she left it. So the child was correct, she will look for it in the box.

A neurotypical child in the experiment would say 'she will look for it in the basket' so now the test can be switched and it can be said that the neurotypical children have a lack of theory of mind as why would a child (doll) need to look for a marble if it was where she left it, she would only need to look for it if it had been moved, the only place that there is to move it to is the box, so that is where she would look.

If neurotypical children would say 'she would look for it in the basket' then they lack a theory of mind as why would the marble need to be looked for unless it had been moved (in this situation) and thus the only place for her to look is the box.

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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 10:22 #4

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Autism explained by Nicole

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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 10:30 #5

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Orangeaid wrote:
Autism explained by Nicole


I would. :wissl:

:gmc:
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 10:40 #6

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Animal behaviour.

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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 10:42 #7

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novum wrote
I would. :wissl:

Watch out for the front teeth they look kinda buggy.
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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 15:30 #8

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novum wrote:

I would. :wissl:

:gmc:
Things a bit bleak in your part of the world? :dunno:
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Autism Positive 11 Apr 2015 17:08 #9

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What does novum get up to when he's not here?



:yup:
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Autism Positive 12 Apr 2015 01:07 #10

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Orangeaid wrote:
Things a bit bleak in your part of the world? :dunno:

Not really, but i was thinking theres a chance she can count cards, so why not try get on her good side. :wissl:

Blue_Tackler wrote:
What does novum get up to when he's not here?



:yup:

Similar yes... but im not sure i can sing quite that well .. and yesterday it was songs of 'Grease' (the film)

( i do sandy and her gangs bits in falsetto)
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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Autism Positive 12 Apr 2015 01:20 #11

novum wrote:
Orangeaid wrote:
Autism explained by Nicole


I would. :wissl:

:gmc:

Throw her a carrot first and see how she gnaws on that. Looks fucking risky to me :twitch:
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Autism Positive 12 Apr 2015 01:54 #12

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
Throw her a carrot first and see how she gnaws on that. Looks fucking risky to me :twitch:

Why waste time with carrots :dunno: ... and i know they say its a fine line between pleasure and pain... but some people dont mind if that line is crossed. :wissl:
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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Autism Positive 12 Apr 2015 02:22 #13

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.... you'll need to make sure she clips her fingernails too then ....
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Autism Positive 12 Apr 2015 05:14 #14

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These TED talks are what pseudo sheople consider high brow - high tech , most but not all is all con- opp .

The TED's consider this one lesson in ' don't blame the victim ' - 'on-line bullying' and other acts of human decency. :hahano: :joker:



or topping THAT more applause for the most charitable couple in the universe. :O :roll: :hahano: :twitch: :facepalm:



which brings to me BT's opening post - ( pass the bucket I'm going to throw-up - one wonders just how many butch backsides' she's branded ) :wissl:
poor Nichole got a double dose - a few 'inferior ' genes and the 'hot' dose of didn't we just go through all this this recently BT ?
Autism is the result of weaponized VACCINATIONS.

it's SO obvious now that it's MAINSTREAM -
www.cbsnews.com/news/vaccines-and-autism-a-new-scientific-review/

SO obvious these days that they have to throw students in Nursing off the course if they question. :hmm:
Vaccine Bullying 101: Nursing Students Taught Scare Tactics
beforeitsnews.com/gold-and-precious-metals/2015/04/vaccine-bullying-101-nursing-students-taught-scare-tactics-2638738.html

" The world needs all kinds of minds " :umm: - geez, I thought we already had that - now they only want damaged ones. Esp. the high functioning Autistic and possibly the Asperger - they're the ones who will compute without conscience - not all but it's a proven fact that empathy doesn't come to them 'naturally'.
( Little wonder Einstein was a lying , patent thieving stooge , I could go further with - van Gogh wasn't vaccine damaged - he was schizophrenic or bi-polar at the very least. )
-
Inside the UK's Biggest Surveillance HQ
" A significant number of GCHQ staff score highly on the autistic spectrum ''
www.newsweek.com/inside-englands-nsa-253816?piano_t=1
Last Edit: 13 Apr 2015 07:00 by Lizzy.
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Autism Positive 13 Apr 2015 11:04 #15

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Me finx lizzzzzzzzy neglected the 'positive' attribute of the thread, though it's not in my nature to try suppress her by posting ''that's not what we're talking about here''.

There's more empathy here than lizzzzzzzzzzy will ever know what to do with, it' manifests into action it does not just sit in a passive emotive state.



People with high functioning autism/aspergers's do have empathy they merely present it in what might seem a logical form based on the behaviour of others rather, sometimes they miss the social cues because they don't read the situations that well using neurotypical fashion, you ought not believe the hype that people on the autism spectrum lack empathy, actually far more of them are male than female, males in general lack empathy compared to females, or rather they may feel awkward communicating empathy so well, so they suppress that part of 'being humane', autistic people do that all the more because they often have poor communication skills when it comes to pretending to care in order to make others feel better.

Empathy is often presented as a social lie, it's something nice to say but people often don't really give a shit, though they know how to make the noises and signs to display that they do.... Yet they rarely do anything practical to help, they just passively 'feel'

In the most part empathy is a learned behaviour, some kind of emotional lie 'I've been through that too so I can empathize with you' it's just like saying 'I know how you feel' or 'I can see your situation you attention seeking fucker but I shall pretend to give a shit because we have something in common'.


Do most of these empathizing neurotypical folks actually do anything to help, such as give donations to the poor, or to travel to regions to help, or do they sit at home and passively empathize like good little drone sheep?

An autistic person if far more likely to do something useful to help a situation using logic, than to use emotions to remain passive and do fuck all useful except pretend to care, which in the main part is exactly what empathy is. It's sheeple comforting one another with baah baah lies.
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Autism Positive 13 Apr 2015 12:14 #16

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Autism Positive 13 Apr 2015 12:18 #17

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if you want to know what autistic people think of their 'researchers/practitioners' at the professor academic level read on, you might then inform yourself and find some of your wonderful 'empathy'.
A discussion about Theory of Mind:
From an Autistic Perspective

from Autism Europe's Congress 2000

J. Blackburn, K. Gottschewski, Elsa George, and Niki L, "A discussion about Theory of Mind : From an Autistic Perspective," Proceedings of Autism Europe's 6th International Congress, Glasgow 19-21 May 2000, in print.

Copyright © 2000 by J. Blackburn, K. Gottschewski, Elsa George, and Niki L



Theory of Mind

Ladies and Gentlemen,

this presentation is the result of a discussion on Theory of Mind (ToM) we had on an electronic mailing list, the ANI-list. To understand the character of this discussion, it is important to know a bit about mailing lists in general and specifically about the ANI-list.

A mailing list allows you to have group discussions via e-mail. Everything you send to the list address gets automatically sent to every member of the list, and of course you also get everything written by other list-members yourself. Often a discussion starts between two people, but after a while others step in and keep the discussion going.

The ANI-list, the mailing list of Autism Network International, is a list mainly for autistic people or "cousins," i.e. people with autism-related conditions, although the list is also open to other people. Its a private list, which means that membership must be approved by one of the list-owners, and it's not allowed to share posts from the list with people who are not list-members without permission of the author. In our presentation, we will only quote posts from people who have agreed to this, and we will use either their full name or just the first name or a nick name according to their wishes. The quotes are unaltered, but we made some changes in the sequence and added some parts. The authors who contributed to this discussion are Jared Blackburn, Niki L, Katja Gottschewski, Elsa George, Jane Meyerding, Jean Miller, Patricia Clark, and Hal.

On the ANI-list and also in this discussion, some terms are used which need explanation. One of those is the gender neutral pronoun, "xe," "xyr" or "xem," which was originally used to refer to an intersexed person, but is also used to refer to a person of any gender. People also often refer to "ACs" and "NTs." "AC" stands for "autistic or cousin," meaning a person on the autistic spectrum in a wide sense. "NT" stands for "neurotypical," i.e. a person with typical neurology, or a "normal" person. All people involved in this discussion on ToM are ACs.

Elsa George started the discussion raising some questions about the term "Theory of Mind," and how the word "mind" is used in this context:


I have just picked up a book by Uta Frith and have come across something called "theory of mind."

Does anyone know what she is talking about? It seems Uta Frith is implying there is some mysterious, non physical "mind" in each of us, separate from the brain. I have read some philosophical neuroscience books on the "mind," where I have gathered they mean self-consciousness. The general direction this field is going is towards the mind being a direct result of the brain (something to do with communication between right and left hemispheres).

However I don't think this is what she means as she uses it to explain things like not being able to understand deceit. Which sounds more to me like a combination of logical reasoning and empathy (in which case I would say my theory of mind is intact). However, I also get the feeling I may have totally missed the point (not meaning I don't have one, I just failed to understand her distinction between mind and brain).

Jared then talked about the meaning of the term "Theory of Mind," as it is used by Uta Frith and others, and pointed out that it is in fact a rather vague term and used inconsistently:


To me, mind is pattern - like the attractors of chaos theory - it is a pattern of biological states and actions (with their associated subjective experience). I don't think that Uta is really talking about what "mind" is though, but only with the intuitive understanding that it (i.e., something like "that") exists. She is not really talking about mind itself, but the intuitive (and automatic) assumption that one exists in people. By this, she basically seems to be talking about the realizing that others (and ourselves) have their own thoughts, feeling, perception, beliefs, and so forth - as opposed to thinking one's own "mental" experience was identical to objective reality, and separate part of the world itself. Thus, she would say that someone without ToM would think that a person who knows the rock is under shell x, would not realize they knew it was "there," only that it was there, and assume everyone should act according to it being "there." A person with ToM, on the other hand, would realize that not everyone would know it was there, because the knowing was part of xyr own experience, not available to everyone - i.e., it was in their "mind," not just "so." I don't think that whether a mind is biological action, a ghost, or whatever is really relevant to the "Theory of Mind" or Uta's hypothesis about the "Theory of Mind." (Note: "Theory of Mind" is not itself a scientific theory, it's a construct, like gravity, a name for an abstract concept - I'm not sure if Uta has bothered to name her theory about ToM - Uta is not suggesting ToM itself as a theory, but is assuming every NT adult has this idea anyway - she is proposing a theory about ToM not working in ACs.) In my opinion, "ghosts" have no place in science, it's not scientists job to argue against them - that's religion. But, I don't think Uta is talking about "ghosts."

Researchers have a lot of inconsistency in their use of the term "Theory of Mind" - Simon Baron-Cohen and John Swettenham (1997) [1] and Uta Frith seem to define it as above when explaining it, but their research often seems to be on totally unrelated (or only vaguely related) concepts. Thus it is misleading - they prove one thing or another called "Theory of Mind" is missing, and then report their results in terms of a totally different idea. And since they use terms like "theory of mind" and "mind blind" (that are catchy in media) they get a lot of unwarranted attention - and a lot of misleading ideas about autism get propagated. Uta's stimuli test all sort of things (one set was just an emotional expression reading test). She seems to have habits of changing definitions, making huge (il)logical jumps, and often has subtle circular reasoning. So, in a way, it's hard to really be sure what she's talking about, since she really isn't that consistent.

While the term "Theory of Mind" is already vague, there are still more problems with some tests which are supposed to test "Theory of Mind," as Jared pointed out:


Others have noted that, besides often testing a totally different construct, many "Theory of Mind" tests used by researchers depend on verbal ability, attention, information processing, and other capabilities that may be impaired in the subjects.

In the following, we discuss one specific ToM test, the Sally-Anne-test. In this test, the child gets to see two dolls, Sally and Anne. Sally puts a marble into a basket and then leaves the room. Anne enters the room, takes the marble out of the basket and puts it into a box. The child then gets asked where Sally would look for the marble when she comes back to the room. It is seen as a sign of ToM if the child understands that Sally doesn't know what Anne knows, and therefore answers that Sally will look in the basket where she put the marble herself. Niki L commented on this:


I believe that I had some sort of theory of mind problem myself when I was younger, but the problems I had were something that Sally Anne test cannot show. What you can detect by Sally Anne test is lack of "theory of others' knowledge," not lack of "theory of mind" in general. I had theory of others' knowledge when I was very young, possibly I might even have attained it earlier than many NT kids. However, my theory of others' knowledge had an awry exception, and I completely lacked "theory of people's (including my own) will and decision making." It seems to me that theory of mind is too broad an idea to describe the problem I had, because the term "mind" includes several different concepts.

If there were some other test about people's decision making, I would not have been able to pass until I reached preadolescence, but it was not because of ignorance, but because of over-adherence to "false theory of others' decision making," something similar to determinism, which I had formed when I had been very young, reasoning by analogy of TV program timetables I saw on newspapers, train timetables, weekly lunch menu at nursery school, and so on. I assumed that everything is predetermined and that adults were taking care of us according to some sort of program, without their own decision making. That is why I stopped making requests to parents. That suggests that difficulty to drop the old theory (which may come from difficulty of shifting attention) was one of the primary problems.

Though I lacked theory of others' decision making, I had theory of others' knowledge, but it was incomplete. I would have passed Sally and Anne test even when I was two years old, if only two puppets were made to be same in size. But if Sally were taller than Anne and looked like an adult, I would not have been able to answer correctly until thirdgrader.

I lived in a black and white world, and I thought "any adult knows anything better than any kid." That is why I did not tell lies to my parents, not because I could not deceive, but because I thought it were useless anyway. I thought adults know everything like god, though they cannot change anything what they know (just as they cannot have reruns of the TV shows they missed at their will). I believed that kids become adult on their 20th birthdays, so everyone gets very smart and tough overnight. I dropped this 20th birthday theory one day, when I was 8 years old, not through observation of people but again, by analogy. I had to give up the idea that spring starts on March the 1st, summer on June the 1st, and so on after I recorded temperature every day for my earth science assignment.
Elsa replied to this:

I got quite a nasty shock when I started school and discovered my mother and teachers had different opinions. However, I generalised this in a slightly different way to you; I came to the conclusion that my mother was smart and that all teachers were stupid... This idea stuck for a very long time (and smart kids were definitely smarter than stupid teachers).

Katja reflected on the idea of a test like the Sally-Anne-test, but with one doll looking like an adult, and wondered about what result such a test would give:


I don't think anyone ever did such a test, but I wouldn't be surprised if NT children would also be more likely to give an incorrect answer (or would do so at an age where they are already able to solve the usual Sally Anne test with two child dolls). It's normal that children believe that adults, or their parents, are more or less godlike. Of course, adults have many abilities the children don't have, and some of them must just seem like magic. And if you see that someone has some abilities which are totally inexplicable and like magic to you, it can easily look like xe would be able to do and know everything. For autistic children, there are even more things which seem totally inexplicable. If you can't read faces, and don't even know about the importance of facial expression (and other body expression as well), or that it has any meaning, it looks like mind-reading if someone knows things about someone else which were expressed by that means. And if someone seems to be able to mind-read in some cases, why should xe not be able to mind-read in the Sally-Anne scenario?

More here archive.autistics.org/library/AE2000-ToM.html
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Last Edit: 13 Apr 2015 22:53 by Frothy.
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Autism Positive 13 Apr 2015 18:22 #18

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@BT

You must be autistic yourself - as you fail to make the crucial connections.

THERE IS NOTHING POSITIVE ABOUT INTENTIONAL , SYSTEMATIC , MASSIVE ATTACKS ON THE NEW BORN and Toddlers'.
It's proven that this UNFORGIVABLE EVIL is deliberate and fast becoming globally mandated with harsh punishment on parents who refuse.
The consequences are an enormous threat to health of humanity . The suffering millions families experience seeing their children fail to thrive , disabled by weaponized vaccination is a war on humanity and that is pure fact.
Don't you dare come here trumpeting the Agenda - that damaged lives are something to be proud about .instead of screaming " STOP THIS MADNESS " with the platform she had at TED.
Positive Attitude - if she cares so much about animal welfare , ( instead of teaching the common sense that a good cattle rancher should already know about how to approach and treat his animals - knowledge that has been lost since the days of grassing free on the range ) perhaps she should be looking at the horrific cruelty so pervasive in the industry or that small ranchers' are under Agenda 21 attacks - :ponda:
yes- they make good drone workers BT . :wissl: :mad:
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Autism Positive 13 Apr 2015 19:04 #19

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Autism, tracks vaccinations, I can see the case for a connection. I could also see a case for a deliberate dumbing down or at least messing up of children, except as far as I can see Jews get vaccinated also??? Anyone got any more on this angle, as....
3. As for what you say about making attempts on your lives: make your sons doctors and apothecaries, that they may take away Christians’ lives.

theinfounderground.com/smf/index.php?topic=13411.0

Furthermore, its close cousin Aspergers's can be good for "specialisation" as it seems to be anti "well-rounded"... I know at least one extreme Aspergers case who is a computer whizz

Alone perhaps on this forum I find BT a valuable contributor.
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
Last Edit: 13 Apr 2015 19:15 by rodin.
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Autism Positive 13 Apr 2015 23:51 #20

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Lizzy wrote:
@BT

You must be autistic yourself - as you fail to make the crucial connections.

THERE IS NOTHING POSITIVE ABOUT INTENTIONAL , SYSTEMATIC , MASSIVE ATTACKS ON THE NEW BORN and Toddlers'.
It's proven that this UNFORGIVABLE EVIL is deliberate and fast becoming globally mandated with harsh punishment on parents who refuse.
The consequences are an enormous threat to health of humanity . The suffering millions families experience seeing their children fail to thrive , disabled by weaponized vaccination is a war on humanity and that is pure fact.
Don't you dare come here trumpeting the Agenda - that damaged lives are something to be proud about .instead of screaming " STOP THIS MADNESS " with the platform she had at TED.
Positive Attitude - if she cares so much about animal welfare , ( instead of teaching the common sense that a good cattle rancher should already know about how to approach and treat his animals - knowledge that has been lost since the days of grassing free on the range ) perhaps she should be looking at the horrific cruelty so pervasive in the industry or that small ranchers' are under Agenda 21 attacks - :ponda:
yes- they make good drone workers BT . :wissl: :mad:

I was being a little facetious in my last but one post, the point is that autism exists, there's lots of opportunities to discuss the causes of it on many other threads here and on other forums, and I'm sure someone can create a thread about the pseudoism of TED.

The point is that Temple Grandin is able to empathize with animals where ranchers can not, she know it's more useful to use her empathy in a practical way and she does enligten cattle farmers how best to treat the livestock as she thinks in similar ways than they do, she sees the world to more of a degree as they do. (a cow)
She knows that her will will be put to better use in enlightening the farmers than protesting them, thus she has directed her energy into a positive and active empathy, she should be congratulated.

Don't get too carried away with the causes of autism nor the reasoning behind TED talks, that will just cause a distraction from the fact that she is doing something useful with her autism, it seems you can't bear that, you need to promote her as a victim, rather than an asset.

Thus you appear to discriminate.

You raised a point that people on the autism spectrum have low empathy, it's not true, they have 'normal' empathy when they understand the situation. <<<< That part is very important to understand.

IE If a person does not know another person is suffering, how can they empathize, that does not matter if they're autistic or not.

When people with high functioning autism perceive the pain suffered by others their empathy is the same as neurotypcial people, where you and others mislead is that you appear to confuse the lack of understanding of the pain of others with low empathy.

I'll just reiterate this point by stating that if you watch 'UK Column News, you're hear Mr Gerrish discuss 'low empathy' political figures, these are people who understand the pain of others but don't care, they are trained/selected for this trait, he calls them 'low empathy' he can't call them psychopathic because they have not been diagnosed, however they are low empathy and aware of their actions or non actions.

Autistic people are not aware at times that other people are having a hard time, they don't perceive many faux pas, or other social concepts, however once the situation is explained to them they have the same empathy as anyone else, so their empathy to awareness ratio is the same or in some cases greater than that of neurotypical people.

I hope that this clears up the lack of empathy issue that is perceived falsely by neurotypical people with regards to autistic people.

Agenda 21 :facepalm: How many sheep on conspiracy forums spout your drone like comments?

Vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, agende 21 .etc..... Heard it all before, please go repeat it on the appropriate threads, this thread is having a fresh perspective on the matter. You just can't bear the term 'autism positive' you sad little twonk of a repeater.
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Last Edit: 14 Apr 2015 00:19 by Frothy.
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Annual Server Target

Whether its 50 cents or five dollars, your donations are appreciated and help keep this community site running so we can all continue to enjoy using it.
This target is to meet our server cost for one year, June 2020 - May 2021, in USD.
$ 340 - Target
( £ 250 GBP )
donation thermometer
donation thermometer
$ 192 - Raised
( £ 140 GBP )
donation thermometer
56%
Most Recent Donation $122 USD
4th January 2021
Bitcoin Address: bc1q0kazqya0nurfxtunxv807vm0m8852nnrrk8mj8
 
Ethereum Address: 0xe69915c80dd75df19f438d556267e04f932f057d
 
More Info: Donation options for TZ
 

No one is obliged to donate, please only donate what you can afford. Even the smallest amount helps. Being an active member is a positive contribution. Thank You.