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TOPIC: What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie?

What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 20:59 #1

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O.K we all know how the official story goes about World War II. The one we were all taught in school, in the history books, and on the TV. The one about how "The Good Guys'' stopped the bad guys from taking over the world. But what if the official version of events we were told were mainly based around lies? How do any of us know what really happened? We've been lied to about all of the recent wars. Iraq, Libya and now Syria. Who's to say they're telling the truth about WWII? Post your take on events or independent research on this thread. No hate please. I'll get the ball rolling by posting Hitler’s reasons for invading the Soviet union. It's always interesting to see both sides of the coin, right. I believe the threat of a communist invasion of Germany was genuine. Operation Barbarossa was a pre-emptive strike against the imminent soviet invasion of Germany and Europe.

The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. – Marcus Aurelius
Last Edit: 26 Apr 2014 21:02 by Zorro.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 21:04 #2

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Everything was a lie and it took me almost 2 (two) decades to do my own profound non-mainstream research, auto-deprogramme and come to a final conclusion.

Thanks for making this subject a thread, Zorro (not to be confused with thoreau ;) )
.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
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Last Edit: 26 Apr 2014 21:05 by PFIZIPFEI.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 21:13 #3

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Just last month a college educated teacher i know watched Zeitgeist and was left totally perplexed about WW2

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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 21:15 #4

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Sorry, but Zeitgeist is pure and blatant disinfo.
Truth mixed with lies, usual mainstream distraction. You can only watch this without being drawn a red hering around your track if you already did your own research and came to your own conclusions beforehand. Then you will be able to enjoy the truth and cut out the lies.
Just my perception.
.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 21:29 #5

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Sorry, but Zeitgeist is pure and blatant disinfo.
Truth mixed with lies, usual mainstream distraction. You can only watch this without being drawn a red hering around your track if you already did your own research and came to your own conclusions beforehand. Then you will be able to enjoy the truth and cut out the lies.
Just my perception.
.

What parts do you disagree with in Zeitgeist and why do you call it "pure and blatant disinfo"?
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 21:39 #6

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:facepalm:

Oh look it's Tony Blair explaining why he intended to invade Iraq.

.

Please feel free to also post your "independent research" ( :facepalm: ) regarding the reasons why the invasion of Iraq was carried out.

Then feel free to discuss the uncanny similarities between George Bush's assertion the United States had the right to invade any country it decided may become a threat and the argument put forward by 'independent researchers' ( :facepalm: ) that Hitler was launching a pre-emptive strike.

It just gets more and more pathetic.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 21:44 #7

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.......... wrote:

What parts do you disagree with in Zeitgeist and why do you call it "pure and blatant disinfo"?

That was my perception when I watched this hour long video then. You don't ask me for watching it again, do you?

The video you posted here for example is lying about the real connection between IG Farben and the Bushes.
You will never get the truth from someone else's experience or mouth, but only from your own research.
At least I would not trust the words of anybody in this respect, but get myself informed, no matter how hard it is to go down the rabbit hole.
And I surely would skip the distraction constantly thrown in by system minions.

.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 26 Apr 2014 23:36 by PFIZIPFEI.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 21:51 #8

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
.......... wrote:

What parts do you disagree with in Zeitgeist and why do you call it "pure and blatant disinfo"?

That was my perception when I watched this hour long video then. You don't ask me for watching it again, do you?

The video you posted here for example is lying about the real connection between IG Farben and the Bushes.
You will never get the truth from someone else's experience or mouth, but only from your own research.
At least I would not trutst the words of anybody in this respect, but get myself informed, no matter how hard it is to go down the rabbit hole.
And I surely would skip the distraction constantly thrown in by system minions.

.

Pfiz you just gave the the run around and didn't answer my question at all...
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 22:02 #9

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.......... wrote:
Just last month a college educated teacher i know watched Zeitgeist and was left totally perplexed about WW2


Dots I would take half the stuff in those Zeitgeist videos with a pinch of salt. it's some truths/half truths mixed in with lots of lies and disinformation. Whether the authors actually intend to poison the well or whether they're simply repeating misinformation is up to others to decide for themselves. I find many of these types of videos very misleading. Read the essay below from war scholar Veronica Clarke about who really funded the NSDAP.


Demystification of the Birth and Funding of the NSDAP

V.K. Clarke

What exactly did the NSDAP (National Socialist German Worker's Party) represent and who were its founding members? Why and how did Adolf Hitler transform the party from an unimpressive proletariat workers’ party to a full-fledged political machine that obtained absolute power in Germany? Perhaps more important, how was it funded? We answer these questions in this introduction. But first, we begin with an examination of the early stages of the NSDAP and its recruiting process. One must understand how this process unfolded if one is to understand the NSDAP’s position on Judaism and Freemasonry as well as the prevailing social and political order of the day. Naturally, we also reveal some of the other important aspects of its early development, which necessitates a fair amount of myth busting about Hitler, including who actually gave him money.

Triumvirate: Leadership, development and unity

Adolf Hitler, contrary to his own self-myths and the myths of others, was not poor—at least not until he had drained his savings and entitlements gallivanting in Vienna. Many historians have written that Hitler simply lived day-to-day wasting both his money and time, but in so doing they overlook Hitler’s experiences and ‘life education’ that later played such an important role in the development and direction of National Socialism as well as the Second World War. The development and direction of both can be traced to Hitler’s experiences during those “lost” years.

Hitler, like so many other young German men and women of his day, fell from middle-class status into that of the “wretched proletariat.” This was something that young Hitler refused to accept. He was deeply embittered by his Vienna experiences, which offered false promises of prosperity and hope for young people with enough willpower and talent. The prevailing dissonance of the time and place in which he grew up inculcated in him a burning desire to change these circumstances, which is precisely what he did after 1933. Hitler was so resentful of the class-ridden society that was Vienna, and Austria and Europe generally, that one of his key aims throughout both the peace and war years was cultivating a system of merit. One’s birth station was not what mattered. What mattered were one’s talent, loyalty, dependability and fortitude, notably in the face of adversity and uncertainty. Hitler was able to overcome most imbedded class barriers in two distinct ways:

1. He recruited both men and women from all social classes and accordingly tailored his speech and disposition to each, depending on his/her social standing.

2. He supplanted economic valuation with racial valuation.

Let’s look at the first point. Hitler needed the broadest spectrum of German society he could get, so this meant that he needed to appeal to men, women, young, old, wealthy, poor, unemployed and employed alike. Women were amongst Hitler’s most devoted and fervent supporters in the early years. So were low-wage earners, small businessmen and foreign nobles, such as White Russian émigrés who wished to see the return of the Russian monarchy. They provided Hitler with a physical audience, elite and business connections and monetary support, most of which ended up being granted in the form of loans. Hitler needed industrialists as much as he needed the workers, elites and disenfranchised foreigners. Since his goal was to raise the station of all lower-class ethnic Germans, he had to win them all together, which required a strategy of multi-class appeal. When he met and spoke with counts, duchesses and other members of the former royalty, he addressed them in a royal manner. His etiquette, speech and personal manners proved impeccable in such company. When he met or spoke with industrialists, such as Fritz Thyssen, he tailored his behavior and manner to match that of the hopes and fears of industrialist Germany. At the same time he was careful to scale back his socialistic language in such company, so that the industrialists would not misidentify him as a Marxist-Communist. He had to convince them that he would crush Marxist-Communism and uphold their industrial power base in the face of the growing mass of disenchanted, underpaid workers who felt they were being cheated and exploited by German industry. Whenever things got economically tough, the workers suffered wage and benefit cuts. They blamed the industrialists, but Hitler saw that the industrialists were also suffering: many went bankrupt during the inflation as well as during the Great Depression. The crippling Versailles reparations forced most German industrialists and exporters into an untenable economic position, which in turn harmed German workers. This meant that Hitler had to at least hint at future German rearmament, which was covertly occurring anyway. On the other hand, Hitler had to promise the workers, his single largest and most important support base in almost every respect in the formative years, that he would not allow the state or industry to exploit them or continue treating them as automatons. We can see that balancing the wants and needs of these three core sectors of class-ridden Germany was far from simple. But Hitler did it, and nearly bloodlessly (relative to the Communist revolutions in Russia and throughout Eastern Europe). Read full essay HERE
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. – Marcus Aurelius
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 22:07 #10

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.......... wrote:
Pfiz you just gave the the run around and didn't answer my question at all...


For the umpteenth time, Dots: I can't answer your questions. You have to go down this rabbit hole on your own, just like everybody else.

:)
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 26 Apr 2014 22:07 by PFIZIPFEI.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 22:09 #11

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Zorro wrote:
.......... wrote:
Just last month a college educated teacher i know watched Zeitgeist and was left totally perplexed about WW2


Dots I would take half the stuff in those Zeitgeist videos with a pinch of salt. it's some truths/half truths mixed in with lots of lies and disinformation. Whether the authors actually intend to poison the well or whether they're simply repeating misinformation is up to others to decide for themselves.

Alot of regular ordinary people watch Zeitgeist on Netflix that are not truthers...
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 26 Apr 2014 22:22 #12

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.......... wrote:

Alot of regular ordinary people watch Zeitgeist on Netflix that are not truthers...


"Millions of flies can't err eating shit!"


~ Old German Sponti Saying
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 09:47 #13

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.......... wrote:
PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Sorry, but Zeitgeist is pure and blatant disinfo.
Truth mixed with lies, usual mainstream distraction. You can only watch this without being drawn a red hering around your track if you already did your own research and came to your own conclusions beforehand. Then you will be able to enjoy the truth and cut out the lies.
Just my perception.
.

What parts do you disagree with in Zeitgeist and why do you call it "pure and blatant disinfo"?

Back to your question dots. You'll find that practically all popular conspiracy videos such as zeitgeist and a myriad of others that get posted on blogs and forums all repeat the same theme about Adolf Hitler. The usual crap like he was funded by the Rothschild's, the Bush family, the royal family blah blah blah. It's the same meme over and over in the politically correct 'alternative' media. None of it is particularly radical, it's just the official line repackaged. The same old shit, just a different package.

I've done a hell of a lot of research on world war II, and have been through this impartially and objectively with a fine comb, undistorted by emotion or personal bias. The later is of particular importance to any serious researcher worth their salt, for this is what the establishment rely on (judgements based on emotion rather than rational thinking). This is why we see so much name calling going on in the alternative media. It's full of people who don't want you to learn the truth. It's full of disingenuous people who will quote you Orwell one minute while applying thought policing methods the very next. Fuck em though, the more they call me names, the more determined I become in defying them. The name calling has had the complete and opposite desired effect on me. I will not be silenced by their intimidation and name calling. For anybody who thinks I'm some PC clown who's going to allow myself to be brow beaten into submission by a bunch of whining libtards I have a message for you... Fuck you! I think everybody should adopt that same attitude, and not allow others to influence their opinions, and especially not allow themselves to be influenced by those who engage in name calling and ant sally arguments, rather than engaging in open and honest debate in an objective manner. Fat chance though, because we know that open discourse is the last thing they want. I just laugh at every accusation I get of being called a 'nazi' or nan as these PC berks call it. There's a reason why 90% of leading conspiracy theorists get to keep saying what they're saying, unhindered by the establishment. However, if you mention that Adolf Hilter wasn't the monster he was made out to be in the history books you'll soon see how long people like David Icke and Alex Jones last.

The so called truth movement and 'alternative media' is awash with confused and often disingenuous conspiracy theorists. Personalities and ''truth gurus'' that present a wide variety of theories on who funded Adolf Hitler and of National Socialist Germany. most of these theories claim he was a "Rothschild agent" collaborating with the international bankers. There's only one problem with that, none of these theories are water tight and offer any substance, they're all baseless, and often far more absurd than the official story. The motto of the story is, tread very carefully in the alternative media because it's absolutely infested with disinformation and people who parrot the same nonsense.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. – Marcus Aurelius
Last Edit: 27 Apr 2014 10:09 by Zorro.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 10:15 #14

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Zorro wrote:
I've done a hell of a lot of research on world war II, ..

:killinme:

"6 million gassed"
rational thinking

:rofl:

I really am sick of this.

But I am curious and would like an answer to this: What has this "hell of a lot of research" actually consisted of? Could you give an idea of its range? You know, books you've read and stuff.
However, if you mention that Adolf Hilter wasn't the monster he was made out to be in the history books

Which history books are these? Be specific.
I just laugh at every accusation I get of being called a 'nazi' or nan as these PC berks call it.

:roll: As I've said before, if you're not some kind of far right Nazi type, I really do pity you as you're hopelessly gullible and credulous and doubtless one of those people who thinks "independent research" means "sitting at home browsing the internet".
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 10:22 #15

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Zorro wrote:
.......... wrote:
PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Sorry, but Zeitgeist is pure and blatant disinfo.
Truth mixed with lies, usual mainstream distraction. You can only watch this without being drawn a red hering around your track if you already did your own research and came to your own conclusions beforehand. Then you will be able to enjoy the truth and cut out the lies.
Just my perception.
.

What parts do you disagree with in Zeitgeist and why do you call it "pure and blatant disinfo"?

Back to your question dots. You'll find that practically all popular conspiracy videos such as zeitgeist and a myriad of others that get posted on blogs and forums all repeat the same theme about Adolf Hitler. The usual crap like he was funded by the Rothschild's, the Bush family, the royal family blah blah blah. It's the same meme over and over in the politically correct 'alternative' media. None of it is particularly radical, it's just the official line repackaged. The same old shit, just a different package.

I've done a hell of a lot of research on world war II, and have been through this impartially and objectively with a fine comb, undistorted by emotion or personal bias. The later is of particular importance to any serious researcher worth their salt, for this is what the establishment rely on (judgements based on emotion rather than rational thinking). This is why we see so much name calling going on in the alternative media. It's full of people who don't want you to learn the truth. It's full of disingenuous people who will quote you Orwell one minute while applying thought policing methods the very next. Fuck em though, the more they call me names, the more determined I become in defying them. The name calling has had the complete and opposite desired effect on me. I will not be silenced by their intimidation and name calling. For anybody who thinks I'm some PC clown who's going to allow myself to be brow beaten into submission by a bunch of whining libtards I have a message for you... Fuck you! I think everybody should adopt that same attitude, and not allow others to influence their opinions, and especially not allow themselves to be influenced by those who engage in name calling and ant sally arguments, rather than engaging in open and honest debate in an objective manner. Fat chance though, because we know that open discourse is the last thing they want. I just laugh at every accusation I get of being called a 'nazi' or nan as these PC berks call it. There's a reason why 90% of leading conspiracy theorists get to keep saying what they're saying, unhindered by the establishment. However, if you mention that Adolf Hilter wasn't the monster he was made out to be in the history books you'll soon see how long people like David Icke and Alex Jones last.

The so called truth movement and 'alternative media' is awash with confused and often disingenuous conspiracy theorists. Personalities and ''truth gurus'' that present a wide variety of theories on who funded Adolf Hitler and of National Socialist Germany. most of these theories claim he was a "Rothschild agent" collaborating with the international bankers. There's only one problem with that, none of these theories are water tight and offer any substance, they're all baseless, and often far more absurd than the official story. The motto of the story is, tread very carefully in the alternative media because it's absolutely infested with disinformation and people who parrot the same nonsense.
Brilliant post Zorro. Touché! !

This is unrelated to the OP, but an example of the type of alternative media truther conformity, is that the Vatican and Zionists rule the world from 3 City States. The Vatican, London and Washington.

That theory can be dissected as bollocks in an hour of independent research. Icke used to shill it, and Alex Jones still does.

You can't believe all that they shovel your way.
Last Edit: 27 Apr 2014 10:23 by Orangeaid.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 11:12 #16

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Chuck, didn't you say a while back that you were just going to ignore me? I'm not going to allow myself to be drawn into these baseless arguments, that will no doubt consist of circular arguments on your terms. Even if I did give you a list of my sources, all you'll no doubt do is attack the author rather than the source material. So I'm not falling for that one. I will just post any relevant info as and when.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 11:24 #17

THE PHOENIX RISES: THE BORMANN PLAN

"The documents I had before me... contained firsthand evidence that the Reichsleiter had survived the war and succeeded in escaping to Argentina. It was attested by the Argentine authorities themselves, in highly classified intelligence reports and positions papers drawn up for their own secret and official use."

Ladislas Farago

Aftermath 1

1 Ladislas Farago, Aftermath; Martin Bormann and the Fourth Reich (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1974), p. 60.

As the war turned irrevocably against the Third Reich, top Nazi leaders began to plan for the future, among them the Nazi Party's Reichsleiter Martin Bormann, Adolf Hitler's secretary and virtual shadow, and financial administrator of the Party's, as well as of Hitler's own personal and considerable, fortune. While much of this story is known to the general public in broad outline, few appreciate the degree of organization, planning, and success it had, and, unfortunately, may be continuing to have.

Even fewer appreciate its significance, for what began in the secret societies of post-World War One Germany as the most explosive political movement in modern history would end by once again going underground, and operating behind a variety of false fronts that included corporations, black projects, secret societies, and criminal and paramilitary syndicates. It would thus exercise a considerable, though hidden, moral and cultural influence on the world that emerged after World War Two.

With the failure of the final large German offensive in Soviet Russia at Kursk in 1943, the Nazi leadership had but two courses of action:

(1) continue the war and hope for the realization of their secret weapons projects in time to provide a military resuscitation, or

(2) begin the process of moving capital, technology, and personnel to ensure the survival of the Party by other means. The Nazi leadership chose both courses of action.

At first the movement of resources abroad -monetary, technological, and human - proceeded haphazardly. Money and loot from a plundered Europe made its way into secret Swiss bank accounts, or in the case of hard assets - precious minerals, bullion, art, diamonds and other gemstones and so on - made its way overland through France into "neutral" but decidedly pro-Axis Nationalist Spain.

But it soon became apparent that haphazard efforts would not ensure the survival of the Party, nor the furtherance of its ideals, nor the spread of its power in the postwar world, nor the continuance of its research projects, which would have to be continued if it ever hoped to regain power and influence. Organization and long-range planning in depth and breadth had to occur if Nazism were to survive covertly. To this end, Reichsleiter Martin Bormann orchestrated a top secret meeting on August 10, 1944, at the Hotel Rotes Haus in Strassburg, in occupied France.

Representatives of all the major German industrial and armaments firms were present, including the huge firms of Krupp, Thyssen, and of course, I.G. Farben. Also present were Bormann himself, Hjalmar Schacht, president of the Reichsbank, and his son-in-law, the famous SS commando, Colonel Otto Skorzeny, leader of the daring air mission to rescue Benito Mussolini in 1943.

At this meeting,

"provisions were made not only to move great sums of money outside Germany but also to camouflage foreign assets on paper for the resurrection of a financial-industrial empire, of sorts, once the Reich collapsed. This empire was to be controlled by the SS."2

2 Henry Stevens, The Last Battalion and German Arctic, Antarctic, and Andean Bases, p. 58.

As a result of this plan, the well-known SS-run ratlines were formed to assist fleeing SS and other Nazis, to provide for their financial security, relocation, and false identities. The most famous of these was of course the ODESSA group, or the Organization Der Ehemahlige SS Angehorige, or "Organization of Former SS Members." Another famous organization was "Die Spinne" or The Spider. In any case, under the Riechsleiter's powerful protection, the SS, in concert with the Kriegsmarine, began to smuggle enormous quantities of gold, precious gems, art and both genuine and counterfeit cash out of Germany. To a lesser extent, machine tools, steel, technicians and other personnel began to be quietly siphoned off Germany industry and smuggled out of Europe.3

The financial treasure trove was then laundered by the SS via a variety of methods, for example, through Evita Peron's Swiss bank accounts, through dummy corporations, through the South American drug trade, and so on.4 During this immediate postwar period, most of this fortune was controlled by Otto Skorzeny.

The German industrialists who had been set up abroad with SS money dating back to the deal at the Rotes Haus in Strassbourg in 1944 were asked by Skorzeny to pay back their loans. Both Thyssen and Krupp did so, as presumably did others. To give the reader an idea of the sums collected by Skorzeny, Eva Peron alone had an estimated $800 million dollars in bank deposits, in 1945, and 4,600 carats of diamonds and other precious stones, 90 kilograms of platinum and 2,500 kilograms of gold.5

With these monies, the SS purchased huge tracts of land in South America and elsewhere, and large corporations were established in which "research which (sic) had begun in Germany could be carried through."6 These "secure areas" or Sperrgebiete often saw the establishment of whole towns, airfields, highways and all the amenities of civilized German life.7

Local security was, of course, provided by the SS or "contract labor" from the host country. The most famous of these colonies, perhaps, is the Colonia Dignidad in Chile, a "colony" notorious for the disappearances of the too- inquisitive reporter, and implicated in the US overthrow of the Chilean Marxist government of Salvador Allende in the early 1970s and the training of Chilean dictator Pinochet's DINA "interrogators."8

3 Stevens, op. cit., p. 59.
4 Ibid., p. 62.
5 Ibid.
6 Ibid., p. 63.
7 bid., pp. 63-64.
8 Q.v. Peter Levenda, Unholy Alliance: A History of Nazi Involvement with the Occult (New York: Avon Books, 1995), pp. 300-301, 343-356.

And of course, these secure areas in the Andes and other remote South American locations are also reputed to be the sites of secret Nazi laboratories continuing the research on "flying saucers" and other wartime Nazi black projects.9

9 Stevens, The Last Battalion, p. 64.

Whatever one may think of the truthfulness of the last allegation, it is true - and generally well known - that such colonies of Nazis did and still do exist in South America, with connections to the South American underworld and governments that one can only imagine. But there is good reason not to dismiss even the "continued research" allegation too quickly, for it conforms to a well-known pattern of secret post-war West German corporate and military research on the continent on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, Africa.

In the final months of his administration, President Jimmy Carter accused South Africa's apartheid government of having tested an atom bomb in the Indian Ocean. German and American newspaper reporters quickly uncovered - in spite of Praetoria's denials - a tapestry of corporations and dummy corporations that clearly led back to West Germany's Bundeswehr, and to a multitude of personnel and military officers with ties to the Third Reich. The goal was clear: The Federal Republic was supplying massive technological assistance to South Africa (and to Israel as it turned out) in the areas of uranium enrichment and plutonium transmutation via centrifuges and other processes, in return for which uranium-rich South Africa bartered the raw atomic fuel itself.

Germany could thus fulfill its postwar treaty obligations by not developing or deploying atomic, biological, or chemical weapons on German soil, while at the same time using South Africa to construct and test a bomb of essentially German design. If this sounds familiar, it is, for after World War One, Germany side- stepped the Versailles treaty -which forbade the Germans possession of tanks, aircraft, and heavy artillery beyond a certain caliber - by concluding a secret protocol in the Rapallo treaty with the other pariah of the day, the Soviet Union.

Thus, as early as 1922, German officers were training in tank warfare in the Soviet Union with their Russian counterparts, among them the future Colonel-General Guderian who would lead the Second Panzer Army during Operation Barbarossa to the very gates of Moscow.10 In yet another important study challenging the standard assumptions of the origin and transmission vector of the human AIDS virus and the history of the discovery of HIV, Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz makes a solid case for its genesis within secret American biological warfare research at Fort Detrick, Maryland.

But there is more to Horowitz's investigations than this, for there is a German connection lurking deep in the background, and once again, it goes back to Bormann and presages the 1944 Rotes Haus meeting in Strasbourg:

In the Spring of 1944, Merck and Company, Inc. received a large cash infusion from Martin Bormann.... This at the time Merck's president, George W. Merck, was advising President Roosevelt, and initiating strategies, as America's biological weapons industry director. According to CBS News correspondent Paul Manning, the lion's share of the Nazi gold went to 750 corporations, largely including Merck, to secure a virtual monopoly over the world's chemical and pharmaceutical industries. This was done not only for Germany's economic recovery, but to assure the rise of "The Fourth Reich.'

Merck, then, along with Rockefeller partner I.G. Farben, received huge sums of money from the Nazi war chest to actualize Hitler's proclaimed 'vision of a thousand-year Third Reich (and) world empire. This was outlined with clarity in a document called 'Neuordnung,' or 'New Order,' that was accompanied by a letter of transmittal to the (Bormann led) Ministry of Economics.

'Bury your treasure,' Hitler advised Bormann, 'for you will need it to begin a Fourth Reich.'11

10 The often overlooked story of the West German bomb and its very secret development was covered in the New York Times book by Zdenek Cervenka and Barbara Rogers, The Nuclear Axis: the Secret Collaboration Between West Germany and South Africa, (New York Times, 1978), ISBN 0-8129-0760-4

11 Leonard Horowitz, D.M.D., M.A., M.P.H., Emerging Viruses: AIDS and Ebola: Nature, Accident, or Intentional? (Sandpoint, Idaho: tetrahedron, Inc., 1999), p. 335.

Bormann apparently ignored his Fuhrer, and in a momentary burst of Christianity, heeded Christ by not burying his treasure, but investing and increasing it.

In any case, as late as 1988, as the Soviet Union was nearing its collapse, Russian premier Mikhail Gorbachev appeared to be trying to point a finger of blame for the AIDS epidemic in Africa in Germany's direction. Via Russian diplomatic channels and contacts in the former Belgian Congo, now Zaire, the Russian government had learned of a Zairean physician who had formerly worked for the West German OTRAG corporation, or Orbital Transport and Missiles, AG. This doctor's OTRAG laboratory had been tasked with isolating viruses from the African green monkey that were capable of such rapid reproduction that it could destabilize the human immune system. The laboratory's assignment was to develop a mutant strain "that would be a human killer," since the green monkey variety was harmless to humans.12

But it is really the OTRAG establishment in Zaire that is itself of the greatest interest, for it fits the pattern of postwar SS relationships with South American governments and false from corporations. OTRAG was granted a lease by the Mobutu government to 29,000 square miles of Zaire, a lease that gave OTRAG "complete sovereignty and control over the area."13 What was the purpose of this land? Ostensibly, it was to develop and test there cheap satellite launch capability for private industry, an application with obvious military overtones.14

In other words, what one has with the OTRAG-Zaire enclave is something like an Area 51, but owned by a private corporation. The enclave is nothing less than a testing facility for missiles and laboratories for biological, and presumably other types of weapons development. According to the German Information Service of South Africa, OTRAG executives included former Nazis, some from the wartime V2 rocket project.15

12 Horowitz, Emerging Viruses, p. 364.

13 Ibid., p. 365.

14 Ibid., pp. 365-366.

15 Ibid., p. 366.

This in itself should give one pause, for it indicates that German rocket research was continued, not just by former Nazis working for Von Braun's NASA in the USA, or building massive boosters for Korolev in the Soviet Union, but also for West Germany itself! Moreover, OTRAG's shares were subsidized by the West German government, Chancellor Helmut Schmidt's denials notwithstanding.16

Finally, in what is a clear indication that OTRAG's purpose and goals were not simply to contrive cheap satellite launch capability, Penthouse magazine ran an expose of the German company, disclosing its ties to the Dornier and Messerschmitt-Belkow-Blohm aerospace and armaments firms which were quietly developing and testing German cruise missiles on OTRAG's Zaire range, with the aid of cruise missile technology provided to them by the American Boeing Corporation.17 Dornier and Messerschmitt were, of course, clearly tied to the Third Reich's war machine and had deep ties to its black projects.

16 Ibid.

17 Ibid, p. 367.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/reichblacksun/chapter15.htm
Coz he's a dedicated swallower of fascism
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 11:36 #18

  • Zorro
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Chuck Random wrote:
:facepalm:

Oh look it's Tony Blair explaining why he intended to invade Iraq.

.

Please feel free to also post your "independent research" ( :facepalm: ) regarding the reasons why the invasion of Iraq was carried out.

Then feel free to discuss the uncanny similarities between George Bush's assertion the United States had the right to invade any country it decided may become a threat and the argument put forward by 'independent researchers' ( :facepalm: ) that Hitler was launching a pre-emptive strike.

It just gets more and more pathetic.

That's just nonsense though isn't it. Everybody knows the reasons for invading Iraq were based on outright lies. Did Iraq have multiple divisions amassed on the boarders of Europe ready to invade, like the soviets did against Germany? No of course not. Britain was tricked into going to war against Germany in very much the same way they were sold the weapons of mass destruction lies. Not only that, Germany had every reason for the pre-emptive strike against the red Bolshevik menace. Our German cousins were no more an enemy than the Iraqi people were.

The goals of operation Barbarossa were to destroy the red army which was amassing on the boarder ready to invade Germany, to gain the stolen land back for Germany, and to destroy the radical form of Communism that Lenin et al had installed in Russia during the Russian Revolution. All this talk of Hitler wanting to exterminate the Russians or the ''racially inferior'' is nonsense. His aim was to destroy the radical communist menace.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. – Marcus Aurelius
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 11:40 #19

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Good on you Zorro.

Showing true tolerance. Just bear in mind the most certain others would know about war is what they've experienced on X Box.
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What if everything you were taught about World War II was a lie? 27 Apr 2014 11:50 #20

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Zorro wrote:
Chuck, didn't you say a while back that you were just going to ignore me? I'm not going to allow myself to be drawn into these baseless arguments, that will no doubt consist of circular arguments on your terms. Even if I did give you a list of my sources, all you'll no doubt do is attack the author rather than the source material. So I'm not falling for that one. I will just post any relevant info as and when.

I have no intention of arguing anything. I simply asked you to elucidate the nature of this "hell of a lot of research" of yours which you've supposedly "have been through impartially and objectively with a fine comb". This must surely have encompassed a wide range of the "history books" you state are all wrong. Only a zero watt bulb would go round claiming they'd done a "hell of a lot of research impartially and objectively with a fine comb" without having performed a thorough examination of the available published work wouldn't they? Obviously this would have to restricted as since there's such an immense body of work covering WWII and I'm assuming you're not a full time academic, but there's plenty of WWII buffs out there who know a hell of a lot.
I'm simply being respectful and entertaining the possibility you're not one of these clueless imbeciles who thinks they've discovered astonishing information because they've spent a few hours reading what Nazis and conspiracy theorists say on the internet. Since this thread is purportedly about "independent research", it would surely be useful for you to share resources and perhaps give people a very succinct summary of what you've researched and opinion on the various debates within academic discourse?

I have thus simply out of curiosity requested an overview of the nature of your "research" since you claim to be such an authority on the subject and the assertion does seem jarringly incongruous with statements like "6 million gassed" and other such howlers.
Even if I did give you a list of my sources, all you'll no doubt do is attack the author rather than the source material

But this surely includes 'the history books'? Why would I automatically attack all those authors?
I mean, I claim no expertise whatsoever but I've still read both 'mainstream' books and Holocaust denial and Nazi material.

And you're straw manning. I've pointed out you repeatedly cite Nazis but have also rebutted claims you've made, in which case you simply ignore what I've said - which is why I decided it was pointless responding.
No War But The Class War
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