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TOPIC: MH17 & The Holocaust

MH17 & The Holocaust 23 Mar 2016 05:48 #1

  • Gaia
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I start this topic (actually the first on TZ), based on a discussion with Flare here. The idea is it's open for anyone interested (hence the choice for General Discussion). If a mod thinks it's better placed elsewhere, feel free to move it.

In essence it boils down to two conflicting world views:

Flare:
- MH17 is/must be real
- Holocaust is fake

Gaia:
- MH17 is a hoax
- Holocaust STORY is obviously fake
- holocaust - the mass deportation and (un)intended killing of hundreds of thousands of people is real

===========

As a start I want to quote the last responses by Flare in the topic about the Brussels "attacks". It would be wildly offtopic to discuss this there and derail that particular topic and the discussion deserves an own thread.


Flare - 1
Regarding the Holocaust, you keep on talking about "(un)intended killing"... there was no killing, not intentionally, nor unintentionally. There was no plan for it, there is no forensic evidence for it. Nothing. Yes, a lot of people died in the camps, but they were victims of malnutrition and the typhus epidemic. Now being a victim of those circumstances is something different then 'killing' which you are constantly implying.

You state: "A Holocaust is mass deportation and killing of people". Once again: people did not get killed.
So that leaves mass deportation only and that is no Holocaust.

Matter of fact, let's look at the meaning of the word "Holocaust":

Holos = Fire
Caustos = Sacrifice
Holocaust = "Sacrifice by fire"
Flare - 2
Regarding the shooting of Anders Breivik, I haven't looked into that to see if it was a hoax or not. However, regarding MH-17 I definately know it is not a hoax, since my wife knows the sister of one of the girls who died with that planecrash.
Flare - 3
Dude... how many more times do I have to tell you that my wife KNOWS the sister of the girl who died on board of that plane?! She works with her ffs! And she has pulled her through a lot of tough times she went through, as she was (and still is) devastated by it and so is her family. It's a fact, or do you think I'm just making stuff up here?

Fact that the Holocaust is the greatest hoax ever told, doesn't change the fact of a planecrash which has taken place in which people definately died. You can't say "Well, if the Holocaust didn't happen, then the planecrash also didn't!" That's just ridiculous. As you have to look at each subject differently.
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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MH17 & The Holocaust 23 Mar 2016 07:07 #2

  • Gaia
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Flare - 1
Regarding the Holocaust, you keep on talking about "(un)intended killing"... there was no killing, not intentionally, nor unintentionally.

Gaia - 1
This claim is ridiculous. "There was no killing, not intentionally, nor unintentionally". All the deaths under the nazi regime tell otherwise. Not the lampshade liars of The Holocaust Story, as we both agree that story is false. But that does not take away the deaths both inside and outside Germany.

The claim made by the naztalgics (cf. Dennis Wise's "The Greatest Story Never Told") is that:
- the camps in the countries were set-up purely as labour camps
- the people dying in those camps died from typhus
- the nazis couldn't get enough food and medicine to those camps so the people starved and died from diseases

Then you have already "unintentional" (it could have been prevented) killings. So your first claim is already debunked by the same videos you propose to show "The Whole Truth And Nothing But The Truth".... :wissl:
There was no plan for it,

That is an impossible claim to make.

There are several options:
1 - there was a plan
2 - there was no plan

1A - there was a plan but it has not been written down
1B - there was a plan and it has been written down, the documents are preserved
1C - there was a plan, has been written down, but the documents are destroyed

2A - there was no plan, the nazis just did something without plan
2B - there was no plan, the nazis improvised during the war what to do

As outlined in the Holocaust topic here, I think option 1C is the most probable.
Arguments for that position:
1 - the nazis (as Germans) had a high Gründlichket and were not of the improvising kind
2 - a statist system, a highly organised bureaucracy does write things down
3 - the destruction of documents in the pre-internet age was easy
4 - the absence of evidence TODAY does not mean there was no plan
5 - if only the presence of a written document outlining ALL the details is considered proof, then there's both no plan FOR nor AGAINST the holocaust; there's also no written plan for hoaxing everything. The argument needs to be applied consistently; no written document for the holocaust and no written document for the hoaxing of everything means it is inconclusive
there is no forensic evidence for it. Nothing.

1 - for the vast majority of deaths there is no forensic evidence. We use records to analyse history. Of all the billions of people who died in history we only have some forensic evidence. Does that mean the others didn't die? No, of course not.
2 - forensic evidence can be destroyed
3 - evidence may be found in the future
4 - the naztalgics claim that the Red Cross had total access to the camps and came up with 282,078 deaths. I say that this number is a minimum count; the Red Cross was not able to assess ALL the deaths and especially towards the end of the war the access to the camps was more difficult
Yes, a lot of people died in the camps,

So this directly discards your first claim, I quote, "there was no killing, not intentionally, nor unintentionally." :facepalm:
but they were victims of malnutrition

What a politically correct euphemistic way of phrasing the starvation of PEOPLE.... :iitm:

"Victims of malnutrition"...

If I buy a nest of puppy dogs and I take them into my home, preventing them from escaping ("the camps") and I do not feed them and they die, do you think I can claim "they were victims of malnutrition"? Or do you think "you let them starve to death, you bastard" is more appropriate...? :roll:
and the typhus epidemic. Now being a victim of those circumstances is something different then 'killing' which you are constantly implying.

No, it's not.

If you:
- first kidnap people against their will
- then place them in camps
- then let them starve and get killed by typhus

Then you, as the one who kidnapped (1), transported and gathered (2) and refused to feed and cure them to keep them alive (3), YOU are responsible for the death of those people.
You state: "A Holocaust is mass deportation and killing of people". Once again: people did not get killed.

Well, you already flipflopped twice now. They got killed. They existed before 1940 and were gone after 1945. So they were killed. How. we don't know on an individual basis, but they got killed. According to your own admission before by the way, I quote again: "Yes, a lot of people died in the camps,".... :umm:
So that leaves mass deportation only

1 - so, no
2 - "mass deportation 'only'" . Like it's something not so bad... "Only mass deportation", what the heck are we bitching about.... :iitm:
and that is no Holocaust.

That may be a matter of definition. I call intentionally kidnapping PEOPLE and letting them die (un)intentionally a holocaust.
Matter of fact, let's look at the meaning of the word "Holocaust":

Holos = Fire
Caustos = Sacrifice
Holocaust = "Sacrifice by fire"

Holos, or olos means "whole".
Caustos is "fire"

So there are different etymologies. holocaust

Still this word game is irrelevant.

Kidnapping, deporting, gathering and putting people to work, letting them starve or die from typhus = holocaust. It was pretty much everyone, so "whole"...

Flare - 2
Regarding the shooting of Anders Breivik, I haven't looked into that to see if it was a hoax or not.

I suggest you do that then...
However, regarding MH-17 I definately know it is not a hoax,

Definately (sic) knowing something is rather impossible, unless you experienced it yourself...
since my wife knows the sister of one of the girls who died with that planecrash.

And here we come to the core of the topic.

1 - the fact -I take Flare's statement seriously- that your wife knows someone does not prove anything
2 - knowing the sister of someone does not mean you know that someone
3 - you or or your wife does not know that sister. Maybe that woman made up her sister, maybe her sister is in a safehouse, has a new identity or "god" knows what...
4 - "knowing" someone's sister does not make the plane "crash" (sic) real. It only makes the sister real (the colleague of your wife), nothing more, nothing less
5 - knowing someone is no argument against the physical impossibilities of that plane that was allegedly shot down, I come back to this at the end of this post

Flare - 3
Dude... how many more times do I have to tell you that my wife KNOWS the sister of the girl who died on board of that plane?! She works with her ffs! And she has pulled her through a lot of tough times she went through, as she was (and still is) devastated by it and so is her family. It's a fact, or do you think I'm just making stuff up here?

It is only a "fact" your wife knows someone. That she was "devastated" may or may not be true.

And then we jump back to the holocaust. There are MANY more people "who knew someone" and the devastation was far greater than with 1 alleged "plane" that was supposedly "shot down". Yet you claim that the case where there were thousands of witnesses and stories is ALL fake while at the same time you take 1 story of a remote person as proof to say that that story was real....
Fact that the Holocaust is the greatest hoax ever told,

Jumping back to propaganda narrative....
doesn't change the fact of a planecrash which has taken place in which people definately died.

1 - no, that's true. I am not claiming that "if the holocaust wasn't true, then this crash also not". What I am pointing out is the inconsistency in your reasoning.
2 - you can only speak for yourself and at most your wife. Your wife can at most speak for that sister. Not for the person who allegedly died. She didn't know her.
3 - a "grieving" sister can still be fake. Your wife (and you) can be misled by her.
4 - even if we assume that that unknown woman, the sister of the colleague of your wife, is gone, it's still no proof she died because of a plane shot down
You can't say "Well, if the Holocaust didn't happen, then the planecrash also didn't!" That's just ridiculous. As you have to look at each subject differently.

Exactly what I am doing.

Now, I know that many people who were in the occupied countries before the war, were not there anymore after the war. Not because I have known those people personally (I am too young for that), but because the children of those people lost their parents. My late grandfather (who I've known) was one of those people and as I exist, more than that unknown sister of the colleague of the nephew of the milk man, I am certain that my great-grandparents have existed. If not, I wouldn't exist. That's a biological fact, which goes a little bit beyond some hearsay bullshit story of "grieving colleagues with or without sisters"...

According to the narrative my great-grandparents died in Sobibor in 1943. I know that it was not caused by gassings, as they are impossible. That has been convincingly shown by Germar Rudolf, David Cole and others.

The question for me remains; what happened to them? How did they die?

Back to MH17 and the holocaust:

Flares:
- MH 17 was a real plane shot down because my wife knows the sister of an alleged victim

Gaia:
- the Holocaust Story is fake
- my great-grandparents perished
- I do not know what happened to them but before the war they were alive and after the war they were not there anymore

Conclusion
What Flare is doing, is taking the perishing person as proof for the official story of a physically impossible "event".
What I am doing, is recognising the physical impossibility of the official story, yet taking the biological fact serious to question what happened in the event

If I would reason falsely just like Flares, it would be like this:
My great-grandparents died in Sobibor, so the gas chamber story must be real
cf.
The sister of the colleague of my wife died with MH17, so that must have been a real plane and really shot down

And I am not doing that, while he on the other hand is reasoning that way.

Truth seeking is about letting go of established world views, investigating what can be possible and especially what can't be possible. Sticking to a Story is the opposite of truth seeking. It is the destruction of it.
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

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