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TOPIC: Who Really Created/Creates the Universe?

Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 00:24 #1

  • peacenik
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The physical universe for all it's wonder and awesomeness is reducible down to ENERGY operating in TIME and SPACE. That fundamentally is all the physical universe is, just ENERGY in TIME and SPACE.

What few understand is THOUGHT is an ENERGY that exists in TIME and SPACE. Every time you think a thought you create a particle of the physical universe. This piece of the physical universe of course is microscopic and can be only measured electronically, but none the less a particle of the physical has been created every time you think a thought. From no where a particle of physical universe is created, that was not there before.

Ultimately, you/we as beings are a ENERGY, SPACE, and TIME production unit.

The physical universe is a quantity thing, composed of these tiny particles we create every time we think a though., Hundred of zillions of them. It's awesome arithmetic!

What if the physical was/is collectively created by those capable of thought?
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
Last Edit: 31 Jan 2017 00:26 by peacenik.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 00:51 #2

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So we've created our own 'matrix' perhaps.

Ive heard of this idea before.

May as well feed it some more since im here...

1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 01:13 #3

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Long time ago i was involved with a spiritual group whose ideas stemmed from islam (though the claim was that while the expression of this truth appeared islamic, the same truth was to be found in all other spirtual traditions).

To be brief - matter does not exist and everything is spirit. the manifest universe is and yet is not an expression of the one which uses relativity to view its qualities interracting. edit (paradox and confusion are part of the mystic vision - there is a term hayrah www.almirajsuficentre.org.au/qamus/app/single/1091)

The non-existence of matter is possible, but i dont buy it due to some aspects of this "non-existent" matter ending up suffering horribly and cannot accept that a really loving creator would allow this simply to see its infinite possibilties find expression.

The counter argument - see hayrah


Truth is anti-semitic
Last Edit: 31 Jan 2017 01:21 by Voltaire.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 03:02 #4

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Well, it ain't the hateful fuck who is the god of the OT.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 03:11 #5

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Voltaire wrote:
www.almirajsuficentre.org.au/qamus/app/single/1091)

The non-existence of matter is possible, but i dont buy it due to some aspects of this "non-existent" matter ending up suffering horribly and cannot accept that a really loving creator would allow this simply to see its infinite possibilties find expression.

The counter argument - see hayrah

I enjoyed reading your post.

Couple of points....


1....I try to steer clear of using the terms 'creator' or 'God' as they meant something entirely different prior to the advent of monotheism (belief in one God). Monotheism, as you probably already know, is a relatively recent addition to the human experience. Some say monothesium was a subversive movement? But, thats a discussion for another thread. Anyway....Islam, Allah, like it or not, is part of the monotheism network.

2....I am not sure I agree with the idea, Allah (or anything else) is 'unknowable'. I believe anything that can be experienced can be known. We live in a cause and effect universe. I believe anything we are the effect of can be understood and known.

I found the link within your posted link, to be especially enlightening....

'the renewal of creation at every instant'. www.almirajsuficentre.org.au/qamus/app/single/1091#1486

That's true!

Every .25th of a second you renew yourself by thinking another thought. At the very moment you remember what you just thought, the present becomes the past. Thus, you create the past, present, and future, every .025th of a second. So 'yes' you really do renew creation at every instant. You recreate yourself every .25th of a second. every .25th of a second the present becomes the past.
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
Last Edit: 31 Jan 2017 03:50 by peacenik.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 03:41 #6

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bd wrote:
Well, it ain't the hateful fuck who is the god of the OT.

Well... in that case you also might want to look up what the Quran says about LBGT's and actually does about it, whom you are welcoming with open arms:

What Does Islam Teach About...

Homosexuality

What is Islam's position on the treatment of homosexuals?



Islam goes beyond merely disapproving of homosexuality. Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.

Beneath the surface, however, there are implied references to homosexual behavior in paradise, and it has been a historical part of Arab and Muslim culture.

Quran

Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" - An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction. (Inexplicably, the story is also repeated in suras 15:74, 27:58 and 29:40).

Quran (7:81) - "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?" This verse is part of the previous text and it establishes that homosexuality as different from (and much worse than) adultery or other sexual sin. According to the Arabic grammar, homosexuality is called the worst sin, while references elsewhere describe other forms of non-marital sex as being "among great sins."

Quran (26:165-166) - "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"

Quran (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone" This is the Yusuf Ali translation. The original Arabic does not use the word "men" and simply says "two from among you." Yusuf Ali may have added the word "men" because the verse seems to refer to a different set than referred to in the prior verse (explicitly denoted as "your women"). In other words, since 4:15 refers to "your women", 4:16 is presumably written to and refers to men.

Interestingly, the same rules don't seem to apply in paradise, where martyrs for the cause of Allah enjoy an orgy of virgins and "perpetual youth" Quran (56:17) (interpreted by many to mean "boys" Quran (52:24)). Quran (76:19) bluntly states, "And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls." Technically, the mere presence of boys doesn't necessarily mean sex, however it is strongly implied from the particular emphasis on the effeminacy, handsomeness and "freshness" of the boys. The female virgins of paradise are also compared to pearls (56:23).

[Editor's note: We are not implying a link between homosexuality and pedophilia here anymore than we are implying one between heterosexuality and pedophilia when recounting that Muhammad's preferred wife was a 9-year-old girl.]

Hadith and Sira

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Sahih Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

Reliance of the Traveller, p17.2 - "May Allah curse him who does what Lot's people did." This is also repeated in three other places.

There are also several lesser hadith stating, "if a man comes upon a man, then they are both adulterers," "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses," "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes," and "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to."

Notes



Gay men being rounded up for "processing" in the Islamic world, 
where homosexuals are demonized, banned, beaten, probed,
forced into marriage, flogged,  incarcerated, lashed, hanged,
brutalized, stoned, thrown from roofs, tortured and shot. 
 
Homosexuals are beheaded, hanged and stoned in modern Saudi Arabia and Iran, where Muhammad's laws are applied most strictly.  Five other Muslim countries also have the death penalty on their books for homosexual behavior.  In the past, gays were burned. 

As one cleric recently put it, the only point of theological debate is not whether the homosexual should be killed, but how it should be done. 

In 2016, an educated imam in Tunisia explained that while it may seem harsh, there is not ambiguity about this in Islam:

God is very straightforward about this — not we Muslims, not subjective, the Sharia is very clear about it, the punishment for homosexuality, bestiality or anything like that is death. We don’t make any excuses about that, it’s not our law — it's the Quran

There are several places in the Quran where the story of Sodom is repeated, with emphasis placed on the destruction of the town for homosexual lewdness. Also, according to Serge Trifkovic:

Mohammed’s first successor Abu Bakr reportedly had a homosexual burned at the stake. The fourth caliph, Mohammed’s son-in-law Ali, ordered a sodomite thrown from the minaret of a mosque. Others he ordered to be stoned. One of the earliest and most authoritative commentators on the Koran, Ibn ‘Abbas (died 687) blended both approaches into a two-step execution in which “the sodomite should be thrown from the highest building in the town and then stoned. (source)

Ayatollah Abdollah Javadi-Amoli of Iran said, in April of 2012, that homosexuals are inferior to dogs and pigs, since these animals (presumably) do not engage in such acts. In November of that year, a cleric on British television stated, "What should be done to those who practice homosexuality? Torture them; punish them; beat them and give them mental torture."

A 2014 fatwa from the mainstream OnIslam.net proclaimed that homosexuality is "abnormal" and abhorrent" and confirmed that gays should be killed: "The punishment for men or women who are unwilling to give up homosexuality and therefore are rejecting the guidance of Allah Most High is in fact death according to Islam."  An imam invited to speak at a Florida mosque in 2016 said that killing gays was an "act of compassion".

Since the resurrection of the caliphate in 2014 (the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria) dozens of homosexuals have been thrown from rooftops.  Other have been stoned to death.  Muslim identity groups, such as CAIR, did not bother to issue a single denunciation of these serial murders prior to the 2016 Islamist massacre at a gay night club in Orlando.

Although some Muslim political leaders in the West join with social liberals in alliances that sometimes include peripheral support for gay rights and civil unions, this appears to be more a matter of expediency than genuine concern. There has never been any noticeable effort on the part of Muslim leaders in the West to relieve the plight of homosexuals in Islamic countries overseas - where their influence would surely carry more weight than that of their secular allies.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 04:22 #7

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From my studies I have come up with the following model of the universe as it can be observed from the perspective of a human being. My model is based on evidence, data dots that are then connected

1) It is infinite, hence unknowable
2) It has no beginning or end
3) Entropy is maintained
4) Matter cannot be converted into energy (This I am least sure about)
5) It is permeated by an aether capable of supporting what we might call supernatural intelligence.
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 05:24 #8

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Flare ... the god of the Koran and the god of the OT are the same god, the god of Abraham and Moses.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 06:48 #9

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bd wrote:
Flare ... the god of the Koran and the god of the OT are the same god, the god of Abraham and Moses.

So where does Mohammed fit in the bible?
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 15:19 #10

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rodin wrote:
From my studies I have come up with the following model of the universe as it can be observed from the perspective of a human being. My model is based on evidence, data dots that are then connected

1) It is infinite, hence unknowable
2) It has no beginning or end
3) Entropy is maintained
4) Matter cannot be converted into energy (This I am least sure about)
5) It is permeated by an aether capable of supporting what we might call supernatural intelligence.


The physical universe is finite. All matter is finite. All matter has a beginning and an end. All of matter comes from energy that is condensed. Ultimately, the physical universe is reducible down to energy operating in time and space. That's all it is. If you can point a single instance where anything in the universe is not composed of energy operating in time and space, I will listen, but I don't think you will be able to? Thus the physical is knowable.

"supernatural intelligence" can you give an example?
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 20:02 #11

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peacenik wrote:

The physical universe is finite. All matter is finite. All matter has a beginning and an end.

The current model says that the universe started with a bang. This model is a lie, since the 'cosmological red shift' observation ignores evidence from QASAR studies showing vastly different values from within the same region of space. ie it is a LIE.

peacenik wrote:
All of matter comes from energy that is condensed. Ultimately, the physical universe is reducible down to energy operating in time and space. That's all it is. If you can point a single instance where anything in the universe is not composed of energy operating in time and space, I will listen, but I don't think you will be able to? Thus the physical is knowable.

Why should energy 'condense' all of itself. There is so such thing as energy, it is not a thing, it is a property of things'. a bullet has high kinetic energy. High kinetic energy cannot have a bullet. Give me an example of your so-called condensed 'energy'

peacenik wrote:
"supernatural intelligence" can you give an example?

God, Satan, Demons, anything supernatural and conscious. Gravity is a supernatural force, blind not intelligent.
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
Last Edit: 31 Jan 2017 20:09 by rodin.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 20:05 #12

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Flare wrote:
bd wrote:
Flare ... the god of the Koran and the god of the OT are the same god, the god of Abraham and Moses.

So where does Mohammed fit in the bible?

He doesnt .... but Jesus fits into Islam, as a prophet.
Allah is YHWH.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 22:05 #13

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bd wrote:
Flare ... the god of the Koran and the god of the OT are the same god, the god of Abraham and Moses.

What is 'OT'?

If you're talking about the OP (opening post), There is no mention of any kind of god
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 22:32 #14

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peacenik wrote:
bd wrote:
Flare ... the god of the Koran and the god of the OT are the same god, the god of Abraham and Moses.

What is 'OT'?

If you're talking about the OP (opening post), There is no mention of any kind of god

OT = Old Testament
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 31 Jan 2017 22:53 #15

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Not only is a particle of the physical universe made every time you think a thought, but there are varing degrees of mass in every mental image picture you generate. This was known more than 4K years ago.

So important was the degree of mass in the mental image pictures which you create, it was said that Pharaoh's afterlife was determined by the mental image pictures in his heart. Pictures of, trauma, regret, pain, and so forth have more mass than regular pictures. According to the ancient Egyptians, mass weights down the soul not allowing the soul transcend the earth at body death, subjecting the Pharaoh to rebirth.

Here is an image of the ritual of Maat, where the Pharaoh's heart or soul is weighted against a feather. If the heart or soul was found to be heaver than the feather, he had to be reborn again.


Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
Last Edit: 31 Jan 2017 22:59 by peacenik.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 01 Feb 2017 10:10 #16

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peacenik wrote:
The physical universe for all it's wonder and awesomeness is reducible down to ENERGY operating in TIME and SPACE. That fundamentally is all the physical universe is, just ENERGY in TIME and SPACE.

What few understand is THOUGHT is an ENERGY that exists in TIME and SPACE. Every time you think a thought you create a particle of the physical universe. This piece of the physical universe of course is microscopic and can be only measured electronically, but none the less a particle of the physical has been created every time you think a thought. From no where a particle of physical universe is created, that was not there before.

Ultimately, you/we as beings are a ENERGY, SPACE, and TIME production unit.

The physical universe is a quantity thing, composed of these tiny particles we create every time we think a though., Hundred of zillions of them. It's awesome arithmetic!

What if the physical was/is collectively created by those capable of thought?

G'day Peacenik.

Here is the perspective I have on this ...

Energy = Soul (Light)
Space = Body (Truth)
Time = Mind (Way)

I am the Way (Mind/Time), the Truth (Body/Space) and the Light (Soul/Energy).

All physical matter is Light condensed. Physical matter is a representation of the Way that Light is formed, it is What Is, the Truth, as physical matter cannot lie, only the Way it is formed can be lied about (that is, a lie is a mental construct).

Both Space (Body) and Time (Mind) are 'tools' of Energy (Soul) for the purpose of experiencing itself. Remember, Time is a mental construct as there is only NOW. Space is an illusion as ALL THAT IS is ONE totality. Energy created both so that it could have a relationship and thus experience itself.

Three aspects are formed from the ONE aspect by creating the illusion of two, duality,

"From no where a particle of physical universe is created"

Or ... From now here a particle of physical universe is created.

Same letters, different spacing. :thumbup:
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 01 Feb 2017 10:32 #17

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rodin wrote:
From my studies I have come up with the following model of the universe as it can be observed from the perspective of a human being. My model is based on evidence, data dots that are then connected

1) It is infinite, hence unknowable
2) It has no beginning or end
3) Entropy is maintained
4) Matter cannot be converted into energy (This I am least sure about)
5) It is permeated by an aether capable of supporting what we might call supernatural intelligence.

G'day Rodin.

About 1), 2), 3), if it is "unknowable", how would you know if it is infinite, has no beginning nor end and the entropy is maintained?

About 4), matter is a container for energy.

About 5), "God, Satan, Demons, anything supernatural and conscious. Gravity is a supernatural force, blind not intelligent."

Gravity is a natural force.

Again, if it is as you state "unknowable", how would you know any of this?
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 03 Feb 2017 05:11 #18

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Buddha got it right when he said,

'We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. It's all based on our thoughts.'

Thought is EVERYTHING. The only thing senior to Thought is the thinker of the Thought. Thought created the universe, the universe did NOT create thought, as academia would have you believe.
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 03 Feb 2017 10:13 #19

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I AM ALL I AM wrote:
rodin wrote:
From my studies I have come up with the following model of the universe as it can be observed from the perspective of a human being. My model is based on evidence, data dots that are then connected

1) It is infinite, hence unknowable
2) It has no beginning or end
3) Entropy is maintained
4) Matter cannot be converted into energy (This I am least sure about)
5) It is permeated by an aether capable of supporting what we might call supernatural intelligence.

About 1), 2), 3), if it is "unknowable", how would you know if it is infinite, has no beginning nor end and the entropy is maintained?

One can hypothesise infinity without 'knowing' it. As for entropy, it must be conserved in a steady state universe, otherwise it would degenerate.

About 4), matter is a container for energy.

And this disagrees with my model how?

About 5), "God, Satan, Demons, anything supernatural and conscious. Gravity is a supernatural force, blind not intelligent."

Gravity is a natural force.

Gravity operates at many times lightspeed hence is de facto supernatural. Lightspeed is a boundary of the natural, at least as far as electromagnetic radiation goes
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
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Who Really Created/Creates the Universe? 11 Feb 2017 03:46 #20

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rodin wrote:
I AM ALL I AM wrote:
rodin wrote:
From my studies I have come up with the following model of the universe as it can be observed from the perspective of a human being. My model is based on evidence, data dots that are then connected

1) It is infinite, hence unknowable
2) It has no beginning or end
3) Entropy is maintained
4) Matter cannot be converted into energy (This I am least sure about)
5) It is permeated by an aether capable of supporting what we might call supernatural intelligence.

About 1), 2), 3), if it is "unknowable", how would you know if it is infinite, has no beginning nor end and the entropy is maintained?

One can hypothesise infinity without 'knowing' it. As for entropy, it must be conserved in a steady state universe, otherwise it would degenerate.

About 4), matter is a container for energy.

And this disagrees with my model how?

About 5), "God, Satan, Demons, anything supernatural and conscious. Gravity is a supernatural force, blind not intelligent."

Gravity is a natural force.

Gravity operates at many times lightspeed hence is de facto supernatural. Lightspeed is a boundary of the natural, at least as far as electromagnetic radiation goes

G'day Rodin.

Yet, if it is unknowable, you wouldn't even know anything about it in any way, shape or form because it is unknowable. You wouldn't even know that you didn't know anything about it. If you know anything about something, then it isn't unknowable as you already know about the something to start with, let alone anything else.

1. Life occurs/is experienced within Life. Your physicality is surrounded by Life, therefore it is within Life.
2. Life is ONE, the Totality, ALL THAT IS. Separation is an illusion, ALL of Life is ONE interconnected whole.

As ALL THAT IS is ONE within itself, then as in ONE aspect, so in ALL aspects. If ONE was unknowable, then ALL would be unknowable, for as in ONE so in ALL, for ONE is ALL THAT IS. A contradiction cannot exist within ONENESS, What Is, Is. You cannot make something into itself as it already IS itself. Each individuated aspect of the whole cannot contradict what it already is, as the finger cannot contradict being an individuated aspect of the physicality. What Is, Is. That which is impossible IS impossible. That which is knowable IS knowable. As in ONE, so in ALL.

As matter is a container for energy, then what created the matter?

Would that be energy?

As shown in Cymatics, Frequency creates Form and Form creates Frequency. Said another way, Energy creates Matter and Matter creates Energy.

That appears to be a contradiction in your "model".

How can you have a "boundary" within that which is infinite?

Any "boundary" would be a contradiction of infinity itself.

You might claim that it "is de facto supernatural", yet how can something naturally occuring be "supernatural"?

That would be a contradiction within itself.

Are you able to explain how something naturally occurring could possibly be "supernatural" without it being a contradiction of/within itself?

Great discussion. Thanks in advance for your response. :thumbup:
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.
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