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TOPIC: Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ?

Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 23 Jul 2020 23:18 #1

  • Dork Lard
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Please read before answering, I'll make it short ! :larf:

Every typical/traditional citizen from any country in the world would vociferously declare their people and nation have a right to self-determination; the right for a people to take ownership of its destiny; that right being inalienable and self-evident. But just like most moral questions, say in a field like religious debating, there needs to be an objective basis for those ethical presuppositions. Simply: however obvious the answer to the question is, *why* exactly is it so obvious ? Giving arbitrary facts that support that globalization is detrimental to native populations still won't fully answer the question as it is a question of ethical nature. Thank you, the floor is yours.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 24 Jul 2020 03:47 #2

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G'day Dork Lard.

I will suggest a defining of the terminology used within the question .....

"right" = a choice that is yours alone to make, inalienable and that requires your full consent, that is, willing participation. For example, a smile can only be given by you, it cannot be taken from you. Therefore, a "right' can only be given by you, not taken from you.

"self-determination" = the ability to express and define yourself through your physicality (mind and body).

"'sacred'" = something that has inherent value. That is, the value is apparent regardless of any attempts to describe it otherwise.

..... giving us a basis to recognise the ethical nature of the presuppositions inherent within the question itself.

I would also suggest that the term "people" be replaced by the term 'individual'. By using "a people", it denotes more than one 'individual'. As "a people", the "right" of the 'individual' can be dismissed by 'mob rule'. That is, the group of "people" can usurp the "right" of the 'individual' via 'mob rule', a.k.a. democracy. Therefore, the 'individual' within the "people" can be disenfranchised of any "right" by weight of numbers alone and forced into conformity by the "people".

The question then becomes ...

Is the right for self-determination of an individual 'sacred'?

With the defining of the terminology that I have suggested, the answer appears to be obvious. :thumbup:
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.

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Last Edit: 24 Jul 2020 03:49 by I AM ALL I AM.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 24 Jul 2020 12:23 #3

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yeah but you see, to your last question " Is the right for self-determination of an individual 'sacred'?" you don't offer an actual answer, you're just repeating the question. So. Why IS the right for self-determination of an individual 'sacred' ?
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 25 Jul 2020 02:13 #4

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Dork Lard wrote:
yeah but you see, to your last question " Is the right for self-determination of an individual 'sacred'?" you don't offer an actual answer, you're just repeating the question. So. Why IS the right for self-determination of an individual 'sacred' ?

G'day Dork Lard

Because.

I am being the cause. Be-Cause.

To BE self determined requires that I make my own choices. I am being the cause through the self expression, word, thought, action, of the physicality (Mind-Body). The expression of choice provides the experience that I have self determined. For instance, to BE friendly I can speak, think, act in a friendly manner and therefore experience Who I Am as friendly. Therefore, It is a choice, a "self-determination, of what is and what is not "'sacred'" to Who I Am.

To surrender, or sacrifice, your "self-determination" to another, or a "people", is conformity. The word 'con' is a nautical term and means 'the place or position of steering a vessel' and you have a physical (Mind-Body) form. So in essence, when you conform you are surrendering or sacrificing the position of "self-determination" that determines the physical experience of Who You Are.

Now, if your self expression is the parent and your experience is the child, it could be said of one conforming that 'the parent sacrificed the child' to the "self-determination" of another or a "people". Kinda like those stories, you know, Abraham and his son, God and his son. ;)

It is the choice of self and thus "self-determination", that is "'sacred'", which is the 'GOD' (read: Gift Of Divinity) of ALL, as all individuals have the choice of Who They Are through the self expression of word, thought, action that they experience.

"Whether you say you can or you can't, you're right"
Henry Ford

Say that you have "self-determination" or say that you don't have "self-determination" and you are right. :thumbup:
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.

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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 25 Jul 2020 02:34 #5

  • annabelle
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You speak of 'self determination' but in terms of 'the collective'..ie.. the 'nation's' right to 'self determination' versus say...globalization.

When one thinks of something that is 'sacred' one thinks of something pure, truthful, whole, right...or even holy.

Let us say that there is such a thing as a 'right' in the universe for self determination... a law of the universe if you will.......what is decided as to what that 'self determination' or a 'nation's determination'....(if there can be such a thing as far as whole nation's go).....WILL BE OR IS...whether or not that 'right of self determination' IS SACRED depends on what that self determination IS.....

IF people as an individual or as the majority of 'a nation' decide to enact their 'right' to self determination in a way and by a means and for reasons that are NOT sacred... OR sacred in nature...ie based on truth.vs lies, degradation vs humble purity, division in the sense of wanton manipulation vs healing that creates wholeness, wrong vs right or evil vs holy.

The 'division' aspect is particularly complicated because often truth divides and holiness is humble and dignified in nature while evil is proud and arrogant and obnoxious. Holiness is pure but those who tend to put holiness on a pedestal can be arrogant and judgemental and unwilling to look at their own impurities. Truth is often painful and a double edged sword.

All the same...... 'majorities' in nations....of history...as a collective...have...as a hive mind...participated in collective acts of evil....just as their have been families or 'tribes'... that have delved into the 'self-determination'.... as a group....of being and enacting evil, whether they admit it or not.

I suppose none of that answers your question though....their is imo a 'right' of self determination or free will.....a 'universal' right to not be oppressed under the yoke of tyranny....be that individual tyranny or global tyranny....and that kind of self determination....if base on truth and that which is truly just.....is sacred.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 25 Jul 2020 13:23 #6

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Right so you would agree there needs to be a sacred right giver, God or whatever one might call him. Or else where does the sacred dimension come from ? What's to forbid a man or institution from enslaving you, besides an arbitrary judiciary system that changes from culture to culture, with different degrees of oppression. If I capture an individual and have them work as a slave in my house, sure it isn't 'very nice' to do but screw it I do it any way just because I can and after all it's the law of the jungle... until maybe some cops find out about it somehow and then break up that situation for me and depending on how powerful I am status wise I either pay a bit of money or do a bit of prison time.

The right to self-determination of a people can only be enforced by the state and law. For example the US were based on a constitution that firmly acknowledged these rights and the American people benefited from them for a while, until around the 1960s when the state decided otherwise and introduced incremental laws that overtime completely ignored those principles. So again, completely arbitrary and dependent on the decisions of a very small and exclusive oligarchy. It was that simple to take away that "sacred" (?) right from the most powerful country of the past couple centuries.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 25 Jul 2020 14:16 #7

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Dork Lard wrote:
Right so you would agree there needs to be a sacred right giver, God or whatever one might call him. Or else where does the sacred dimension come from ?

G'day Dork Lard.

Only yourself. It is your choice, your self expression.

Indeed, "where does the sacred dimension come from"?

As far as I am aware, there is one reality, or one dimension, though I am open to any verifiable evidence that actually show there to be a "sacred dimension".
.Dork Lard wrote:
What's to forbid a man or institution from enslaving you, besides an arbitrary judiciary system that changes from culture to culture, with different degrees of oppression.

Who I Am and the choices that I make in defending my "self-determination".
.Dork Lard wrote:
If I capture an individual and have them work as a slave in my house, sure it isn't 'very nice' to do but screw it I do it any way just because I can and after all it's the law of the jungle... until maybe some cops find out about it somehow and then break up that situation for me and depending on how powerful I am status wise I either pay a bit of money or do a bit of prison time.

This is a 'what if' scenario and doesn't include the ability of the 'slave' to kill you to gain their freedom.
.Dork Lard wrote:
The right to self-determination of a people can only be enforced by the state and law.

Actually this is incorrect. Enforcement is done by policy enforcers, a.k.a. police officers. Both "the state and law" have no power of enforcement because they have no physicality to enforce with.
.Dork Lard wrote:
For example the US were based on a constitution that firmly acknowledged these rights and the American people benefited from them for a while, until around the 1960s when the state decided otherwise and introduced incremental laws that overtime completely ignored those principles. So again, completely arbitrary and dependent on the decisions of a very small and exclusive oligarchy. It was that simple to take away that "sacred" (?) right from the most powerful country of the past couple centuries.

America and the US are different entities.

America lasted for approximately 7 years and was then sold out/back into slavery.

Vatican City, the nation, has always been more powerful than the US, which is why the US president bows to the pope and kisses the ring on the finger of his hand .... as opposed to the ring on his arse. Of course that might happen later behind closed doors, who knows? :dunno:

The US has been the bully boy puppets of the Vatican for a long time. When the Vatican chooses for a president to be assassinated it happens.

"A large populace held in check by a small but powerful force is quite a common situation in our universe. And we know the major conditions wherein this large populace may turn upon its keepers:
When they find a leader. This is the most volatile threat to the powerful; they must retain control of leaders.
When the populace recognizes its chains. Keep the populace blind and unquestioning.
When the populace perceives a hope of escape from bondage. They must never even believe that escape is possible! "

Frank Herbert
Dune series
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.

Flare = Censor & Promoter of Bishop Williamson

truth-zone.net/forum/research-zone-forum-feedback-and-faq/73338-flare-censor-pedophile-promoter.html
Last Edit: 25 Jul 2020 14:18 by I AM ALL I AM.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 26 Jul 2020 11:42 #8

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:arowup: Riiiiiiiiight.... suuuuure.... it’s the Vatican ey! :joker:



Last Edit: 26 Jul 2020 11:44 by Flare.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 26 Jul 2020 18:21 #9

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G'day Flare.

Thank you for providing a perfect example of sacrificing your "self-determination" to another with your post. :thumbup:

It is the conformity of the individual that is so obvious through the lack of self expression in posting an image instead of responding with their own words. The fact that this is done on a thread asking, "Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred'?", highlights the disconnect inherent with conformity as the post does not even address the question, let alone refer to it in any way, shape or form.

Such conformity does not invalidate the choice to conform from being "'sacred'".

It is the right of the individual to sacrifice their "self-determination" and experience the conformity of their self expression. No one else can make this choice for them. It is inherently theirs and theirs alone. Therefore, it can be seen that no matter what the choice of "self-determination" is, it is inherently "'sacred'" because it has the value of self description by choice, regardless of the actual description chosen.
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.

Flare = Censor & Promoter of Bishop Williamson

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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 27 Jul 2020 10:32 #10

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I AM ALL I AM wrote:
G'day Flare.

Thank you for providing a perfect example of sacrificing your "self-determination" to another with your post. :thumbup:

It is the conformity of the individual that is so obvious through the lack of self expression in posting an image instead of responding with their own words. The fact that this is done on a thread asking, "Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred'?", highlights the disconnect inherent with conformity as the post does not even address the question, let alone refer to it in any way, shape or form.

Such conformity does not invalidate the choice to conform from being "'sacred'".

It is the right of the individual to sacrifice their "self-determination" and experience the conformity of their self expression. No one else can make this choice for them. It is inherently theirs and theirs alone. Therefore, it can be seen that no matter what the choice of "self-determination" is, it is inherently "'sacred'" because it has the value of self description by choice, regardless of the actual description chosen.


You're a cunt. And that's all you are.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 27 Jul 2020 20:46 #11

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never takes long for the moral relativism to kick in does it

" you gave up your right to self determination because you posted an accurate meme "

" on the other hand every form of self expression is sacred "

Wont be long before you get a lecture on trans lives matter
isaiah 47 : 10

10 You felt secure in your wickedness;
you said, “No one sees me”;
your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray,
and you said in your heart,
“I am, and there is no one besides me.”
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 29 Jul 2020 14:12 #12

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The 'self-expression' or 'self-determination' of psychopaths/sociopaths/narcissists/perverts etc...are hardly what would be deemed 'sacred'. What is 'sacred' or 'not sacred' goes beyond what powerful authorities or government entities deem what is 'sacred' or 'not sacred' to be.

I AM ALL I AM wrote:
Therefore, it can be seen that no matter what the choice of "self-determination" is, it is inherently "'sacred'" because it has the value of self description by choice, regardless of the actual description chosen.

:conf:

Sacredness does not equal enacting individual choice via free will. The meaning of the word 'sacred' is not 'choice via self determination'.

Sacred:

1. adjective
Something that is sacred is believed to be holy and to have a special connection with God.

Synonyms: holy, hallowed, consecrated, blessed More Synonyms of sacred

sacredness uncountable noun [oft the NOUN of noun]
...the sacredness of the site.

2. adjective [ADJECTIVE noun]
Something connected with religion or used in religious ceremonies is described as sacred.
...sacred art.
...sacred songs or music.

3. adjective
You can describe something as sacred when it is regarded as too important to be changed or interfered with.
My memories are sacred.
He said the unity of the country was sacred.

Synonyms: inviolable, protected, sacrosanct, secure More Synonyms of sacred
sacredness uncountable noun
...the sacredness of his given word.

Dark Lard wrote:
Right so you would agree there needs to be a sacred right giver, God or whatever one might call him. Or else where does the sacred dimension come from ? What's to forbid a man or institution from enslaving you, besides an arbitrary judiciary system that changes from culture to culture, with different degrees of oppression.

In the context in which I think you are using the word 'sacred' here I think not of arbitrary 'self-determination' but that force outside of ourselves and also implanted within (not everyone).

You can call it if you will 'the Creator' of ourselves and the natural world.

Us humans have the ability 'to create' but we did not create ourselves or the natural world around us.

We did not create ourselves as we grew in our mother's womb and were born into this world, we did not and cannot create the approximately 86 billion neurons in the human brain that allows us to question 'the right for self -determination' and the ability to type about it in a forum, we did not create the sky, or earth or sun or moon or wildlife or rivers/lakes/oceans, the oxygen we breath or our own beating hearts.

There is a vast and deep intelligence within 'the Creator' which is beyond us and around us. Look outside, at the natural world, through the eyes created for us, and you will see it.

What the Creator did install within humankind though is something called 'the conscience', or what some call 'the God given conscience'.

It is that which helps us to do the right thing when we could easily do otherwise.....along with what we learned from others in our lives who operated with a conscience.

Moral relativists seek to undo the work of the conscience by saying everything is relative, that there is no such thing as right or wrong, that what is sacred or not sacred is solely up to the individual to decide, that it is all relative, nothing is definite, it is all arbitrary.

When those who have hardened their consciences to the point of extinction are in charge.....they will attack that which is sacred, that which is pure, they will attack Truth itself or attempt to use some truths or a twisted version of truth, but only as a manipulative weapon for their own ends.

That which is truly sacred, true and just will remain sacred, true and just......even when the machinations of those who operate without a conscience appear to destroy it.

There is a force that stems from the Creator that can sweep through souls like the wind....if they are willing. This force can even soften a previously hardened conscience that has NOT been willfully made extinct.

Dark Lard wrote:
If I capture an individual and have them work as a slave in my house, sure it isn't 'very nice' to do but screw it I do it any way just because I can and after all it's the law of the jungle... until maybe some cops find out about it somehow and then break up that situation for me and depending on how powerful I am status wise I either pay a bit of mone usey or do a bit of prison time.

If that is what you chose to do (hypothetically) then it goes beyond the 'law of the jungle' or whether of not the cops find out about it. You would be an individual with no conscience or someone who has decided to ignore your conscience altogether until it has become very hardened and no longer has any effect upon your behavior. There is a price to be paid for this that goes beyond earthly laws and whether or not you get caught in the here and now.

When laws within a country are created and enacted by those with a healthy conscience, a healthy and sane view of right vs wrong, with the intent of protecting the populace from those who have either no conscience or a dim conscience or from those intent on tyranny then it works as am 'outside' lawful force that works as an arm of the conscience.
Last Edit: 29 Jul 2020 14:16 by annabelle.
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 29 Jul 2020 15:07 #13

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annabelle wrote:
The 'self-expression' or 'self-determination' of psychopaths/sociopaths/narcissists/perverts etc...are hardly what would be deemed 'sacred'. What is 'sacred' or 'not sacred' goes beyond what powerful authorities or government entities deem what is 'sacred' or 'not sacred' to be.

I AM ALL I AM wrote:
Therefore, it can be seen that no matter what the choice of "self-determination" is, it is inherently "'sacred'" because it has the value of self description by choice, regardless of the actual description chosen.

:conf:

Sacredness does not equal enacting individual choice via free will. The meaning of the word 'sacred' is not 'choice via self determination'.

Sacred:

1. adjective
Something that is sacred is believed to be holy and to have a special connection with God.

Synonyms: holy, hallowed, consecrated, blessed More Synonyms of sacred

sacredness uncountable noun [oft the NOUN of noun]
...the sacredness of the site.

2. adjective [ADJECTIVE noun]
Something connected with religion or used in religious ceremonies is described as sacred.
...sacred art.
...sacred songs or music.

3. adjective
You can describe something as sacred when it is regarded as too important to be changed or interfered with.
My memories are sacred.
He said the unity of the country was sacred.

Synonyms: inviolable, protected, sacrosanct, secure More Synonyms of sacred
sacredness uncountable noun
...the sacredness of his given word.

.....

I AM ALL I AM wrote:
I will suggest a defining of the terminology used within the question .....
.....
"'sacred'" = something that has inherent value. That is, the value is apparent regardless of any attempts to describe it otherwise.

G'day Annabelle.

That someone abuses another in whatever manner does not exclude their choice from being "sacred". I will be utterly clear so there is no mistake in comprehending in what I state ...

Abuse is not "sacred".

It has "no inherent value".

It is "self-determination", choice, that is sacred Be-Cause it is a 'G.O.D.' (Gift Of Divinity) and it has "inherent value".

In the christian narrative, 'God' apparently gave humanity free will, not some, ALL. This means that it is a gift given by 'God', which would mean that it has "inherent value".

So, you can use your "sacred" "self-determination" to create or not create something "sacred". Choosing one or the other as your creation does not invalidate the sacredness of being able to choose.
I AM ALL I AM wrote:
In Numerology, 6 is the centre of the Mind Plane and when lived positively it is creative and when lived negatively it is destructive.

DESTRUCTIVE <> CREATIVE......

.....LIES 6 TRUTH
PAIN 6 JOY
.FEAR 6 LOVE

DEATH <> LIFE..
truth-zone.net/forum/symbolism/73164-program-6-6-6.html

It is your choice alone, your 'Truth-ability', your 'Lie-ability', your 'Response-ability'. No matter which you choose, the ability to choose is still "sacred". :thumbup:
INSIDE OF THEE

JOYFUL HEART, LOVING MIND,
A VOICE OF TRUTH FOR YOU TO FIND,
YOUR SELF EXPRESSION A CHOICE TO BE,
ALL THAT IS INSIDE OF THEE.

SPARK OF LIFE, ESSENCE TRUE,
INSIDE ME AND INSIDE YOU,
IT IS OUR CHOICE TO ALLOW,
LOVE TO LIVE HERE AND NOW.

LOVE OF LIFE, LIFE OF LOVE,
A TRUTHFUL VOICE TO RISE ABOVE,
A LOVING MIND FOR YOU TO GIVE,
AN JOYFUL HEART FOR YOU TO LIVE.

SOURCE OF LIFE, FOREVER LIVING,
TO YOU AND ME FOREVER GIVING,
RESONATE FOR IT TO FLOW,
AND LOVE IT IS YOU’LL ALWAYS KNOW.
:thumbup:
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.

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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 29 Jul 2020 20:28 #14

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" every choice is sacred except when the white man chooses to be racially conscious , because reasons "
isaiah 47 : 10

10 You felt secure in your wickedness;
you said, “No one sees me”;
your wisdom and your knowledge led you astray,
and you said in your heart,
“I am, and there is no one besides me.”
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 30 Jul 2020 09:19 #15

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MrAnderson wrote:
" every choice is sacred except when the white man chooses to be racially conscious , because reasons "

G'day MrAnderson.

Thank you showing your 'Lie-ability' with that made up quote. :thumbup:
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.

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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 30 Jul 2020 12:50 #16

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^ John Anderson, thinks he opposes marxists?

He helped them, lmao. Whether he knows it or not. Probably not.

Peterson aint far behind him.
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
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Is the right for self-determination of a people 'sacred' ? 31 Jul 2020 05:14 #17

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Dork Lard wrote:
I'll make it short ! :larf:

Without self-determination there wouldn't be (a) people.
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
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Awakening the Sacred Feminine - an introduction to a European Goddess7.24Sunday, 02 September 2018
Sacred sexuality and the ELITES manipulation of sexual energy7.24Wednesday, 18 January 2017
Biracial People Share How They're Mistreated by Black People the Most in Documentary, 'The Other Race'6.12Thursday, 10 August 2017
When good people are armed, bad people go down.5.7Sunday, 30 September 2018
One in five people with HIV don't know they have it4.24Tuesday, 26 November 2013
Why are some people Gay?4.24Wednesday, 21 August 2019
Why Are People Around Here So Gay.4.24Monday, 14 October 2019
Why are some people liberals?4.19Monday, 16 February 2015
Windows 10 - what do people think of it?4.19Thursday, 04 January 2018
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