Your donations are appreciated and help keep this site running. Even the smallest amount helps.
Thankyou

 
PROMOTE YOUR SITE
HERE
Only $3 USD/month
TRUTHSPOON.COM
The man they can't recruit!
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: An Interesting thought

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 21:45 #1

Say there was to be an armed uprising in the USA and democracy was put on hold under the directives of the PAtriot Act, would the timing and who was in Power as the Commander in Chief, IE Obama, Bush or Mitt Romney make a difference to the outcome?

I was thinking it wouldn't be a bad thing to suspend voting now, for fifteen years so Barack Obama can govern for long enough to deliver his promises, better this than wait say if Mitt Romney were to be the next President, I don't think suspending democracy ultimately translates into Tyranny, I do think a lot of Americans, perhaps every Republican politician included do think of things like they live in the 18th century still, in all likelihood under a conservative regime suspension of democracy would result in a military dictatorship.

I don't think this would happen with Obama, but the force which would become a military dictatorship if the Reps were elected next and declared martial law would attempt to stage a coup if Obama suspended democracy.
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 11 Jun 2013 21:46 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.
User(s) who Liked this post: ..........

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 21:59 #2

  • diamondgeezer
  • diamondgeezer's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Gone But Not Forgotten
  • Posts: 3141
  • Likes received: 2852
I don't think suspending democracy ultimately translates into Tyranny

I think it does.
The pen is mightier than the sword
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.
User(s) who Liked this post: chandrakavi, pheony, PFIZIPFEI

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 22:09 #3

What I mean specifically there DG is the US Democratic Process™ , essentially what that is is an absolutist dictatorship of Private Interests, Obama represents an alternative to that so what you would have if the Democratic Party now suspended VOTING you would have a democratic dictatorship representing the Interests of the American People over Private Interests ™.
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 22:21 #4

  • diamondgeezer
  • diamondgeezer's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Gone But Not Forgotten
  • Posts: 3141
  • Likes received: 2852
I'd rather have an imperfect democracy than a perfect dictatorship thanks.
The pen is mightier than the sword
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 22:39 #5

Imperfect democracy basically means capitalist dictatorship and state exploitation of the people.
You can't have a Capitalist Democracy, it doesn't work, Private Interest begins to Overide and taint Public Interest the State is used by the dominant capitalist class to exploit the masses.
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 11 Jun 2013 22:40 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 22:50 #6

  • diamondgeezer
  • diamondgeezer's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Gone But Not Forgotten
  • Posts: 3141
  • Likes received: 2852
Removing what democracy we have got (ie the vote) isn't going to solve any problems though, quite the opposite in fact.

You'll just end up with an even more unaccountable & oppressive ruling class. It happened in the old Soviet Union, and its happening again now with the EU.
The pen is mightier than the sword
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 22:57 #7

diamondgeezer wrote:
Removing what democracy we have got (ie the vote) isn't going to solve any problems though, quite the opposite in fact.

You'll just end up with an even more unaccountable & oppressive ruling class. It happened in the old Soviet Union, and its happening again now with the EU.
Considering this is a hypothetical discussion, what do you think of the point, if an American armed revolution was a certainty, in the next 20 years, would it make a material difference, not a subjective one to you, but an actual difference to the American people....sorry...if it was under a democratic or a republican administration?
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 11 Jun 2013 23:03 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 23:06 #8

  • diamondgeezer
  • diamondgeezer's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Gone But Not Forgotten
  • Posts: 3141
  • Likes received: 2852
Of course it would make a difference to the American people, one way or the other....

There could be another civil war there in my opinion, if they keep getting pushed.
The pen is mightier than the sword
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 11 Jun 2013 23:50 #9

  • novum
  • novum's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 17224
  • Likes received: 8045
Seems you hold Obama in very high regard OP.

Some just see him as having been passed the ball, and continuing corporate interests/agendas.

Be it Military Industrial, corporate food interest, and more.

He is but one man, a figurehead, he still has to bow to corporate interests, and has done so, will continue to do so.

I really dont think you can be a leader these days and be anything but a figurehead of sorts... well there may be a few left but they are the last of a dying breed perhaps, like what happened to gadaffi.
1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 12 Jun 2013 00:11 #10

  • Chuck Random
  • Chuck Random's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Voluntarily Inactive
  • Posts: 1173
  • Likes received: 750
I don't agree with suspending democracy, but the thread brings a slightly tangential but related point to mind:

I think our current democracy serves as a kind of elite safety valve.

When Tony Blair was elected I was living in a shared house. On election night I came home to find my housemates and some other friends sitting watching the election excitedly. They were over the moon the Labour was sweeping into power. I said something like "I don't see what the big deal is as this isn't going to change a thing" and went to bed. They stayed up most of the night happily watching Labour win seat after seat. I feel my stance was subsequently vindicated.

After all those Blair years people were getting very pissed off. Anyone in the UK knows how people were totally sick and tired of the government. And though it was obvious the Tories would be worse, I think a lot of people were initially relieved to see Brown go, before Cameron's bullshit kicked in big style.

When Cameron goes, people will celebrate. If it's Miliband, I reckon it will take about six months before people are yelling at him on their TV screen.

This superficial change keeps people a mild, transient relief. And then the new people can spend the next four years saying they're very sorry but all the problems are the fault of the predecessors. By the third term, that excuse cannot work any more, so people are ready to vote in a new party they know will be even worse.

This worries me about UKIP slightly. They make the Tories look like Marxists, but people being sick to death of all the other clowns and all this stuff about Europe might give them a chance, or push the other clowns even further to the right.

At any rate, though I agree with DG a sham democracy is technically better, one the other hand a suspension of democracy might be refreshingly honest. But I think the sham democracy is a factor in preventing any hypothetical uprising.
Imperfect democracy basically means capitalist dictatorship and state exploitation of the people.

I do agree with this. When America says it's "bringing democracy" to a country, what they really mean is they're bringing Western capitalism.
Like with all the stuff about oil in Iraq it kinda got a bit overlooked that that Paul Bremner introduced a huge swathe of 'free market reforms', turning what was for the Middle East a pretty good nationalised state infrastructure (until it got bombed nearly out of existence) that provided quite well for its population (Hussein may have been an unpleasant dictator and nob in general, but he did create a pretty decent domestic infrastructure). Bremner handed the country wholesale over to the private sector and the new 'freely elected democratic government' was forbidden to backtrack on any of the 'free market' reforms. America forced Iraq to service the demands of capital.
Having already done this to its own population.
No War But The Class War
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.
User(s) who Liked this post: novum

An Interesting thought 12 Jun 2013 05:33 #11

  • username
  • username's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Junior Member
  • Posts: 538
  • Likes received: 421
Chuck Random wrote:

This worries me about UKIP slightly. They make the Tories look like Marxists, but people being sick to death of all the other clowns and all this stuff about Europe might give them a chance, or push the other clowns even further to the right.

.

UKIP only exists in the force that they now do because recent governments have suspended democracy over fundamentally life changing issues. If they had enough guts to ask the public, enough belief in what they were trying to do to actually try to do then things might be different.

I agree with what you saying about installing democracy too. The people regime change replaces are no better than the ones they replace. I can never take the policy seriously when they switch their morals and allegiances to make sure their goals are achieved.
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.
User(s) who Liked this post: diamondgeezer

An Interesting thought 15 Jun 2013 13:18 #12

diamondgeezer wrote:
Removing what democracy we have got (ie the vote) isn't going to solve any problems though, quite the opposite in fact.

You'll just end up with an even more unaccountable & oppressive ruling class. It happened in the old Soviet Union, and its happening again now with the EU.
I don't think you can compare the EU to Stalinism, it's far more liberal than uncle Joe. I might watch Man of Steel the New Superman movie tonight, I thought that was an interesting name for a superman movie, it will be interesting to consider the subtext of it with a name like that...I don't know about your first sentence, it's kind of instinctive to agree, which makes me suspicious ;)
one of the main problems is actually people's non-participation in democracy at all, showing people they can't take the vote for granted and anything can happen and to take more interest and responsibility in politics perhaps taking it away from them for a while might be the perfect way of showing them that they actually need it and would miss it...?

:waiting:
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 15 Jun 2013 13:48 #13

  • diamondgeezer
  • diamondgeezer's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Gone But Not Forgotten
  • Posts: 3141
  • Likes received: 2852
one of the main problems is actually people's non-participation in democracy at all

I agree.

Its one of their ploys....make voting appear to be such a waste of time that (a) hardly anyone will bother doing it any more, & (b) they won't bother complaining when the right to do it is finally taken away from them.

;)
The pen is mightier than the sword
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.
User(s) who Liked this post: Rural_Oral

An Interesting thought 15 Jun 2013 16:12 #14

  • Rural_Oral
  • Rural_Oral's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Member
  • Posts: 176
  • Likes received: 175
diamondgeezer wrote:
/quote]



Its one of their ploys....make voting appear to be such a waste of time that (a) hardly anyone will bother doing it any more, & (b) they won't bother complaining when the right to do it is finally taken away from them.

;)

Good post. I couldn't have put it any better.
" Vietnam was the first war ever fought without any censorship. Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind "

General William Westmoreland Time magazine, Apr. 5, 1982

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Bullock
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.
User(s) who Liked this post: diamondgeezer

An Interesting thought 15 Jun 2013 17:27 #15

  • i-baster
  • i-baster's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Voluntarily Inactive
  • Posts: 339
  • Likes received: 162
Voting is much maligned and those that do it, I imagine, often feel like they are wasting their time. Some people argue that if you vote then you can not complain if your guy wins. Of course voting is just one part of democracy and people should follow up their votes with calls, letters protests etc. The money in politics is a problem. What better reason to ignore your constituents than financial gain? Since money is a problem and removes the democracy, at very least it unbalances the scale heavily, then removing the vote as well might not be such a big change.

If Obama were free to do what he wanted I think he might do a better job than if government continued as it is. For example much of what Obama has tried to do has been hindered by the Republicans. Take for example closing Guantanamo Bay. He promised to close it and Republicans flat out won't let him. If you recall way back when Obama took office the Republicans flat out said their job was to stop Obama from passing legislation.

Of course for the new theoretical dictatorship to work you have to remove the money pressures. I know Castro is perhaps the best example. No Cuba is not without problems by any means but I think that regime is better in many ways than the democracy we see now in the USA.

That is my view anyway. A dictator who looks out for the people and genuinely cares can do great for the people despite the fact that they might not like it. If Mitt Romney were a dictator I would expect much worse tyranny.
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 15 Jun 2013 19:33 #16

  • ..........
  • ..........'s Avatar
  • Offline
  • Straight Shooter
  • Posts: 10135
  • Likes received: 2869
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 15 Jun 2013 22:43 #17

  • ..........
  • ..........'s Avatar
  • Offline
  • Straight Shooter
  • Posts: 10135
  • Likes received: 2869
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 16 Jun 2013 23:46 #18

  • ..........
  • ..........'s Avatar
  • Offline
  • Straight Shooter
  • Posts: 10135
  • Likes received: 2869
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

An Interesting thought 21 Jun 2013 13:32 #19

  • Rural_Oral
  • Rural_Oral's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Fresh Member
  • Posts: 176
  • Likes received: 175
The Black Panthers did more harm than good...eventually. I knew a few back in the day and these guys thrived on conflict. Personally I couldn't relate to them.Huey and Bobby created a ideology that cried out to a lot of black folk at the time but the 26 rules that cemented membership and their ten point program were like any man made manifesto....FLAWED.
" Vietnam was the first war ever fought without any censorship. Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind "

General William Westmoreland Time magazine, Apr. 5, 1982

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Bullock
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2013 13:38 by Rural_Oral.
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.
User(s) who Liked this post: diamondgeezer

An Interesting thought 28 Jun 2013 14:51 #20

What's going on in Brazil is quite an interesting thing to observe with this subject in mind, there are lot's of reports via reddit of the Brazilian mass movement becoming strongly nationalistic in tone with evidence of widespread support for a Fascist/military coup in the 1960's amongst protesters..Communist and Union flags are being burned and anti-Social Democratic slogans are being shouted, though not completely reactionary in character there is evidence of a large divide amongst protestors between the Left and Right political views.

I think this can be seen in more or less any country you'd care to mention, the response to Social Democratic policies in Europe in some places more than others is reactionary with immigrants, working class and ethnic minority communities being blamed for economic problems, the video posted above called "America's 2nd Revolutionary War" is evidence of the Reactionary tendency developing in the United states in opposition to Obama, a new Internationalism and Social Democratic policies in general.

How things will play out there with the rise of an emergent, authoritarian and overtly fascist mass-movement against the Social Democratic government and reaction to neo-liberalization, remains to be seen, whether this ideology will gain a strong foothold in the country and serve as the model for emerging reactionary right wing tendencies throughout the world during anti-social democratic reaction, global recession/depression and austerity based economic policies, remains to be seen, but I think we all need to pay some attention to what's going on there as it will have important knock on effects within various Right Wing groups in our own countries, and perhaps gain more credence as an alternative to globalization, Lassaiz Faire Capitalism, Liberalism, etc.
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 28 Jun 2013 14:53 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
Only registered members can reply. Create an Account to join the discussion.

Related topics

Topic subjectRelevanceDate of latest post
Interesting people in interesting vids8.47Tuesday, 20 December 2016
JUST WHEN YOU THOUGHT YOU SAW EVERYTHING . . .6.61Friday, 03 April 2015
Everything i thought i knew is a lie6.53Wednesday, 25 January 2017
We Thought They Were White6.53Monday, 11 July 2016
I thought Truth Zone was over..6.46Saturday, 15 November 2014
Just when you thought they couldn't sink any lower...6.39Thursday, 20 February 2014
Migrant Crisis Thought Experiment: What if the Sexes were Reversed?6.25Wednesday, 31 May 2017
THOUGHT CRIME: Persecution & Raids of Dissidents & Holocaust "Deniers"6.19Wednesday, 07 March 2018
Some interesting book resources6.16Monday, 21 March 2016
Yes, it is a very interesting idea Paul.6.16Saturday, 21 September 2019
Moderators: novum, rodin, Flare
Powered by Kunena Forum

Annual Server Target

Whether its 50 cents or five dollars, your donations are appreciated and help keep this community site running so we can all continue to enjoy using it. Secure transactions via paypal.
This target is to meet our server cost for one year, June 2019 - May 2020, in USD.
$ 340 - Target
( £ 260 GBP )
donation thermometer
donation thermometer
$ 210 - Raised
( £ 160 GBP )
donation thermometer
62%
Updated
6th January 2020

No one is obliged to donate, please only donate what you can afford. Even the smallest amount helps. Being an active member is a positive contribution. Thank You.