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TOPIC: The Upheld Pretences Of Society.

The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 18:33 #1

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I wonder why "the people" persist in pretending that the systems supposedly put in place to facilitate the smooth running of society actually work - to the extent that they pay heavily for them, continue to vote, configure their lives and their children's lives daily to keep it all in place? Are they afraid of what would happen if they let systems that already don't work (and many that never have) fall through?

One example - and it's just a sweeping statement without links or evidenced back-up but it would take no effort to "prove" - is The Law. The Law doesn't work, never has and is unlikely ever to. It doesn't prevent crime, doesn't stop "criminal behaviour", doesn't deter anyone from a chosen path, even if it is known to be "illegal". Most people don't kill through their own personal choice - and if they choose to kill, they do so, worrying only about how to get away with it. Fraud continues unabated, as does theft, rape, and myriad other crimes I could list.

And yet people still pretend to themselves and between one another that The Police Uphold The Law and crime figures are down because of it. And when a matter comes to court, the Judges will seek out the truth, often with the help of 12 common men and women, and put the right punishment in place. And, perhaps, that this will deter others from doing the same.

Politicians "ruling" us. Schools "teaching". Medics "curing". Armed Forces "defending". Religions "ministering". Mainly, these systems are all useless, especially in the long-term.

And, yet, people uphold them all, strive to keep them in place, bow to them, moan about them because they know they are ailing and failing.... then continue to pay for and uphold them.

What is the psychology behind this behaviour?
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


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Last Edit: 20 Apr 2014 18:45 by cantata.
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 19:02 #2

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Fear of being different, the system and the unknown.

Indoctrination through Education and Media to accept the status quo.

Unwilling to accept personal responsibilities for themselves and their family.

Laziness, apathy (engineered), acceptance/expectations of convenience regardless of the overall social cost (supermarkets, on-line shopping), instant gratification and total neglect to continue self education throughout their lifetime.

They question nothing and accept everything served up to them for their consumption.

There's always someone or a group of someones to take the blame for literally everything.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 19:20 #3

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cantata wrote:
Are they afraid of what would happen if they let systems that already don't work (and many that never have) fall through?

Here in the US people are very scared of the ghetto, not myself but at least 85% of the other people in the suburbs are.

People feel if the system falls it will be murder and mayhem in the streets because so many people here already have guns.

That's what social conditioning will do, it instills fear without a doubt....
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 19:54 #4

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Without having read the OP I just wrote a statement which covers the same topic in the essence

truth-zone.net/forum/the-lounge/63407-good-bad.html?start=20#100292
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 20:35 #5

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Frog wrote:
Fear of being different, the system and the unknown.

Indoctrination through Education and Media to accept the status quo.

Unwilling to accept personal responsibilities for themselves and their family.

Laziness, apathy (engineered), acceptance/expectations of convenience regardless of the overall social cost (supermarkets, on-line shopping), instant gratification and total neglect to continue self education throughout their lifetime.

They question nothing and accept everything served up to them for their consumption.

There's always someone or a group of someones to take the blame for literally everything.

But aren't they missing the fact that society runs as it does..... anyway. Take out the police, the courts, the politicians (especially, please take out the politicians!) and whole other groups of systems that do nothing for them.... and society would still plug on with most people going about their business and daily lives as they already do.

They don't behave themselves because they might get arrested if they don't. They behave themselves because that is the primary nature of people - to try to live well together and for their selves. They don't mug someone when they are short of money, because they just don't want to get money that way. Most of the system could be eradicated NOW and "the people" wouldn't be affected at all. They already live how they would.

So what's to be afraid of? :conf:

Do they think without politicians, police (who most people don't even see, even when they need one), courts and judges, et al, that they and we would all suddenly turn into murderous, raping, robbing violent marauders?
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 21:40 #6

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The biggest and most influential effect on peoples behavior is governed by peer pressure and social acceptance.

The issue would be the transition period as things corrected after so many years of social manipulation/conditioning.

The police actually hinder community policing because left to their own devices disruptive members of a community would be isolated and either ship out or shape up. Policing prevents members of the community from taking action when action is required.

I don't have an issue with policing in the traditional sense i.e. keepers of the peace. The reality is we should all play a role in policing our own communities.

The legal system is totally corrupt and needs to be returned to a functional common law process rather that the positivism that's taking root. People should be judged by their peers period.

People have been taught to think that chaos would regain in the absence of control. The reality is we live in a constant state of chaos without really noticing it. Take a busy supermarket for example hundreds of people conducting semi random tasks in a confined space and yet everyone achieves what they needed to and gets home safely.

You see peoples primary goal in life is to get through the day safely without injuring others or themselves.

Fear is probably the single biggest factor that holds people back and years of being filled with false information which feeds that fear.

I'm with you tear down the wall and lets get on with it.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 20 Apr 2014 21:43 by Frog.
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 21:55 #7

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We wake up tomorrow morning and the government, armed forces and police no longer exist.
What would happen?
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:00 #8

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Jagged Hope wrote:
We wake up tomorrow morning and the government, armed forces and police no longer exist.
What would happen?

There would be a whole lot of hurt for a period of time and then we would settle down and get on with things. Why because that's what people do and we don't need to be told how to do it. We only got to where we are because political control wants us in this state we find ourselves.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:05 #9

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It's astounding that most people know the police are rubbish and do nothing, really. They know the court system is corrupt and biased, and the judiciary/legal personnel with it. They know doctors have gone too far (having been granted overt life and death decisions over us and our family, young and old) and are the biggest drug suppliers that will be found in any community. They know the schools are persecuting their children (as they once persecuted themselves) with the learning of inane subjects that won't be remembered for a month after the student is free to forget it all.

But STILL they play the game and pay huge sums of money into council and political systems that they KNOW are debauched, acting ultra vires and stuffing themselves silly at the expense of everyone else.

It's this mystery of them actually knowing what is going on but still upholding it that fazes me. They wouldn't "shop" in a store they know is going to give them absolutely nothing for their money, or pay for a holiday that they know they can't have when the time comes. But they still pay into all these systems that they KNOW aren't and won't deliver that which has been paid for.

It's a very odd game we find ourselves muddling about in.
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


:cavalier
Last Edit: 20 Apr 2014 22:06 by cantata.
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:06 #10

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Frog wrote:
Jagged Hope wrote:
We wake up tomorrow morning and the government, armed forces and police no longer exist.
What would happen?

There would be a whole lot of hurt for a period of time and then we would settle down and get on with things. Why because that's what people do and we don't need to be told how to do it. We only got to where we are because political control wants us in this state we find ourselves.

I agree with that in principle, but I worry that the minority who would then seek to continue the exploitation for their own ends would overrun the majority. I also worry that a new form of government would be formed that in turn would be corrupted again.
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:09 #11

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Frog wrote:
Jagged Hope wrote:
We wake up tomorrow morning and the government, armed forces and police no longer exist.
What would happen?

There would be a whole lot of hurt for a period of time and then we would settle down and get on with things. Why because that's what people do and we don't need to be told how to do it. We only got to where we are because political control wants us in this state we find ourselves.

Yes. We already DO what is being done. We already live perfectly decently alongside one another; and those who don't, don't anyway, no matter what the politicians, law or army say.

They are inane systems that we pay high prices for to tell us to do what we already do. :conf:
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:17 #12

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How they actually disable us, for example.

As short a time ago as Dicken's England, when people witnessed what we today would call a "mugging", the common reaction of people in the street was Hue & Cry, in which they would pursue the criminal and recover the stolen property. Not now. The police have us persuaded to do nothing other than call them and wait the 45 minutes to 287 hours until they finally arrive. People would have formed water lines, passing buckets along to one another to put out a fire when it had been spotted, because such a matter was considered a community concern. Not now. Again, we must call the relevant service and wait until they come to see matters right.

In time of war and conflict, natural leaders arose and people got behind them to defend their community/country, training (however adequately or inadequately) in a very short period of time - as in the first and second World Wars when "ordinary" men left their work and were soldiers a month later. So too with medically skilled people, who got on with their life but could be called on to treat people in times of illness and injury. And this gave people a sense of being together and owning their community.

Nowadays, even when our calls are not being answered or things are being handled badly, we stand around calling for the failing services that we know will let us down one way or another. But they're paid to do it, so.......
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:20 #13

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It's called "learned helplessness", Cantata, and it keeps those in power, in power.
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:25 #14

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I believe that has a lot to do with it, Jagged Hope. The whole society now seems to be set up to teach people what they CANNOT do and should not even attempt to do. From big matters through to small, leave it to the paid "experts". Don't try to fix your car - pay a mechanic. Don't try to open the fireplace in your home - that will take a professional builder. Don't treat that cut on your animal's leg - it will take a vet and several expensive injections..... More and more we must not do for ourselves and one another! And we know it's wrong - but we still comply and obey.

It is odd.
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:34 #15

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Jagged Hope wrote:
I agree with that in principle, but I worry that the minority who would then seek to continue the exploitation for their own ends would overrun the majority. I also worry that a new form of government would be formed that in turn would be corrupted again.

Proper education would probably be the first thing to address to enable people to see fact from fiction.

Maintain a state of decentralisation would prevent anyone group dictating to the whole. We actually have the foundations of a good system with what we had in this country if all the checks and measures were actually functional. Even with a centralised government our system should be able to function for the benefit or everyone. The problem is nothing is done for the good of the nation it's done for minority interests at the expense of the national population.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:35 #16

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Jagged Hope wrote:
Frog wrote:
Jagged Hope wrote:
We wake up tomorrow morning and the government, armed forces and police no longer exist.
What would happen?

There would be a whole lot of hurt for a period of time and then we would settle down and get on with things. Why because that's what people do and we don't need to be told how to do it. We only got to where we are because political control wants us in this state we find ourselves.

I agree with that in principle, but I worry that the minority who would then seek to continue the exploitation for their own ends would overrun the majority. I also worry that a new form of government would be formed that in turn would be corrupted again.

This is a very complex issue I feel.

There are all kinds out there and life is cheap for some, some can take others lives without a second thought.

Some might call what i said fear mongering, but im saying it based on experience in part. One example - Ive had someome threaten to take my life and I believe the only thing that stopped it was letting them know that i had let a bunch of people know if something happened to me ,this guy is where they should be looking.

So basically said person was afraid of being a suspect and put in prison.

If these systems were removed in their entirety, there perhaps wouldnt be any fear for said person to act and do what they wanted to do perhaps, which was take me out...unless the systems like police was replaced with something else, but then what is that something else called and what does it become again?
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
Last Edit: 20 Apr 2014 22:39 by novum.
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:36 #17

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@Cantata,

The state needs people to be reliant on it to create the illusion that it's existence is necessary. Things are designed to fail so they can tinker and fail again...rinse and repeat.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:43 #18

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If we remove government as we know it, we also remove the welfare system (if we remove taxation).

We would then have to rely on ourselves to be willing to help the sick, the disabled and the old. Do the majority of us retain enough of a sense of humanity and community obligation for that to work?
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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:47 #19

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novum wrote:
Jagged Hope wrote:
Frog wrote:
Jagged Hope wrote:
We wake up tomorrow morning and the government, armed forces and police no longer exist.
What would happen?

There would be a whole lot of hurt for a period of time and then we would settle down and get on with things. Why because that's what people do and we don't need to be told how to do it. We only got to where we are because political control wants us in this state we find ourselves.

I agree with that in principle, but I worry that the minority who would then seek to continue the exploitation for their own ends would overrun the majority. I also worry that a new form of government would be formed that in turn would be corrupted again.

This is a very complex issue I feel.

There are all kinds out there and life is cheap for some, some can take others lives without a second thought.

Some might call what i said fear mongering, but im saying it based on experience in part. One example - Ive had someome threaten to take my life and I believe the only thing that stopped it was letting them know that i had let a bunch of people know if something happened to me ,this guy is where they should be looking.

So basically said person was afraid of being a suspect and put in prison.

If these systems were removed in their entirety, there perhaps wouldnt be any fear for said person to act and do what they wanted to do perhaps, which was take me out...unless the systems like police was replaced with something else, but then what is that something else called and what does it become again?

Well that was horrible for you novum - but the thing is: how many people in your lifetime have actually said they were going to harm you and meant it? Was this person not a rarity? And did the multitude of laws already in place to forbid this kind of behaviour stop this person? No.

There will always be the White Crow among us; but they are the vast minority (if there can be such a thing) and, if the law was non-existent or in your own hands you might have dealt with it very quickly and efficiently, or your community for you.

As it is, this White Crow is exactly the creature the authorities hold up as an example of why they are needed and how we - the vast majority who wouldn't harm anyone and who would assist someone else in danger - must be roped in by millions of laws.

@frog - again, I agree that it is an illusion created to make people reliant on it all. BUT, what I'm saying is, most people know that! If you talk to people and mention you are unhappy with (enter particular service of the system here: law/police/hospitals/schools/politicians/councils/etc) and they ALL say stuff like, "Oh that lot of bleddi fools. Useless lot!". They do know. But still it all rolls on unchallenged.
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


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The Upheld Pretences Of Society. 20 Apr 2014 22:50 #20

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Jagged Hope wrote:
If we remove government as we know it, we also remove the welfare system (if we remove taxation).

We would then have to rely on ourselves to be willing to help the sick, the disabled and the old. Do the majority of us retain enough of a sense of humanity and community obligation for that to work?

Isn't this the kind of thing we should be teaching ourselves and our youngsters, and forming the greater part of their school curriculum? There is no reason why people wouldn't want to continue paying (fair) taxes in order to keep their communities running (that's supposedly why people do pay taxes); but there could be put in place some better method of purchasing the required services. None of these things are beyond us. We're already paying for such systems - but not getting them (at all, properly or fairly) anyway.
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


:cavalier
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