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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 21:04 #41

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Then you aren't paying attention and or have a blinkered view.

...

Maybe due to watching decade old vids on Youtube from RWnuts and ex KGB people.

Has the Select affairs committee interrogation of Google escaped you?

US dept of Justice investigation of JP Morgan?

No i do pay attention to how corporations are doing. They are doing just fine for the most part, and will continue to do so. It doesnt make a difference who i watch, i see what is happening with corporations, and i see what is happening to peoples real disposable income and the economies of the west. Wealth inequality in the west is increasing.

My opinions/thoughts aside, the interest rates for starters show what is happening, the common people so to speak arent borrowing, they arent investing, they have little confidence in the economy, many businesses cant compete with corporations at all , which was not the case in the past. Corporations also go out of their way to put small businesses out of business, they will undercut them and behave in the most cuntish (for want of a better word) of ways until they are forced to close shop all the time, complaints to politicians fall on deaf ears.

Individuals inside these corporations make these calls, and typically no one stops them, no regulators, no governments, nobody. Im sure they are quite proud of themselves everytime a small business is bulldozed to make way for a new Burger King and so on, and yes this actually happened to someone i used to actually work for myself. thanks to a corporation who boasts Blackrock and Vanguard as its major institutional shareholders. Its quite common from what i can gather.

My view is that corporations and governments are reducing us to modern day slavery, with not many choices other than to work for one of these corporations as a wage earner, and im definately not alone on this.

I wish i could share your optimism on what these international organisations want or hope to achieve but right now i dont.

It cant have escaped you that corporations can continue to fuck up, like the banks and automakers did in the USA, and they are bailed out using taxpayers money. Average joe isnt afforded that luxury, they just have their stuff taken if they fuck up and tough cookies.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
So you know people who blame the EU for the Banking sector crash?

Well the eurozone crisis was not simply a banking sector crash there were more factors, but yes i know people who see participation in the EU as a bad thing ultimately..

And now we see many ex goldman bankers have been put in place to run countries such as greece, italy and more, and in my experience guys like this arent interested in helping the people anywhere near as much as helping the corporations they worked for, same goes for guys like Malcolm Turnbul in australia, ex head of GS who is hell bent on re-writing laws in order to screw more little guys.

Seeker do you really think the lives of average joe in the west has improved in the last decade? The feedback im getting from a number of different western places is quite the opposite. Especially so from many employers/business persons. I think that would have to change for people to regain or indeed have any confidence in the centralization of power we are seeing unfold.

People will notice what is actually happening to them, not what they are told is happening to them.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
People running Greece, Greek politicians and Greek companies cook the books and your friends blame the EU?


The books could not have been cooked without Goldman Sachs help, which was indeed the case, in order to keep the EU happy, so no not greek companies.

I mean this is old news now but what the hey...
Wall St. Helped to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis

Wall Street tactics akin to the ones that fostered subprime mortgages in America have worsened the financial crisis shaking Greece and undermining the euro by enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts.

As worries over Greece rattle world markets, records and interviews show that with Wall Street’s help, the nation engaged in a decade-long effort to skirt European debt limits. One deal created by Goldman Sachs helped obscure billions in debt from the budget overseers in Brussels.

Even as the crisis was nearing the flashpoint, banks were searching for ways to help Greece forestall the day of reckoning. In early November — three months before Athens became the epicenter of global financial anxiety — a team from Goldman Sachs arrived in the ancient city with a very modern proposition for a government struggling to pay its bills, according to two people who were briefed on the meeting.

The bankers, led by Goldman’s president, Gary D. Cohn, held out a financing instrument that would have pushed debt from Greece’s health care system far into the future, much as when strapped homeowners take out second mortgages to pay off their credit cards.

While Wall Street’s handiwork in Europe has received little attention on this side of the Atlantic, it has been sharply criticized in Greece and in magazines like Der Spiegel in Germany.

Its a long article we can read the lot here: www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/business/global/14debt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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Last Edit: 18 Aug 2013 21:48 by novum.
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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 21:32 #42

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Since we're here talking about these organisations... thoughts on this article? ...

What price the new democracy? Goldman Sachs conquers Europe

While ordinary people fret about austerity and jobs, the eurozone's corridors of power have been undergoing a remarkable transformation




The ascension of Mario Monti to the Italian prime ministership is remarkable for more reasons than it is possible to count. By replacing the scandal-surfing Silvio Berlusconi, Italy has dislodged the undislodgeable. By imposing rule by unelected technocrats, it has suspended the normal rules of democracy, and maybe democracy itself. And by putting a senior adviser at Goldman Sachs in charge of a Western nation, it has taken to new heights the political power of an investment bank that you might have thought was prohibitively politically toxic.

This is the most remarkable thing of all: a giant leap forward for, or perhaps even the successful culmination of, the Goldman Sachs Project.

It is not just Mr Monti. The European Central Bank, another crucial player in the sovereign debt drama, is under ex-Goldman management, and the investment bank's alumni hold sway in the corridors of power in almost every European nation, as they have done in the US throughout the financial crisis. Until Wednesday, the International Monetary Fund's European division was also run by a Goldman man, Antonio Borges, who just resigned for personal reasons.

Even before the upheaval in Italy, there was no sign of Goldman Sachs living down its nickname as "the Vampire Squid", and now that its tentacles reach to the top of the eurozone, sceptical voices are raising questions over its influence. The political decisions taken in the coming weeks will determine if the eurozone can and will pay its debts – and Goldman's interests are intricately tied up with the answer to that question.

Simon Johnson, the former International Monetary Fund economist, in his book 13 Bankers, argued that Goldman Sachs and the other large banks had become so close to government in the run-up to the financial crisis that the US was effectively an oligarchy. At least European politicians aren't "bought and paid for" by corporations, as in the US, he says. "Instead what you have in Europe is a shared world-view among the policy elite and the bankers, a shared set of goals and mutual reinforcement of illusions."

This is The Goldman Sachs Project. Put simply, it is to hug governments close. Every business wants to advance its interests with the regulators that can stymie them and the politicians who can give them a tax break, but this is no mere lobbying effort. Goldman is there to provide advice for governments and to provide financing, to send its people into public service and to dangle lucrative jobs in front of people coming out of government. The Project is to create such a deep exchange of people and ideas and money that it is impossible to tell the difference between the public interest and the Goldman Sachs interest.

Mr Monti is one of Italy's most eminent economists, and he spent most of his career in academia and thinktankery, but it was when Mr Berlusconi appointed him to the European Commission in 1995 that Goldman Sachs started to get interested in him. First as commissioner for the internal market, and then especially as commissioner for competition, he has made decisions that could make or break the takeover and merger deals that Goldman's bankers were working on or providing the funding for. Mr Monti also later chaired the Italian Treasury's committee on the banking and financial system, which set the country's financial policies.

With these connections, it was natural for Goldman to invite him to join its board of international advisers. The bank's two dozen-strong international advisers act as informal lobbyists for its interests with the politicians that regulate its work. Other advisers include Otmar Issing who, as a board member of the German Bundesbank and then the European Central Bank, was one of the architects of the euro.

Perhaps the most prominent ex-politician inside the bank is Peter Sutherland, Attorney General of Ireland in the 1980s and another former EU Competition Commissioner. He is now non-executive chairman of Goldman's UK-based broker-dealer arm, Goldman Sachs International, and until its collapse and nationalisation he was also a non-executive director of Royal Bank of Scotland. He has been a prominent voice within Ireland on its bailout by the EU, arguing that the terms of emergency loans should be eased, so as not to exacerbate the country's financial woes. The EU agreed to cut Ireland's interest rate this summer.

Picking up well-connected policymakers on their way out of government is only one half of the Project, sending Goldman alumni into government is the other half. Like Mr Monti, Mario Draghi, who took over as President of the ECB on 1 November, has been in and out of government and in and out of Goldman. He was a member of the World Bank and managing director of the Italian Treasury before spending three years as managing director of Goldman Sachs International between 2002 and 2005 – only to return to government as president of the Italian central bank.

Mr Draghi has been dogged by controversy over the accounting tricks conducted by Italy and other nations on the eurozone periphery as they tried to squeeze into the single currency a decade ago. By using complex derivatives, Italy and Greece were able to slim down the apparent size of their government debt, which euro rules mandated shouldn't be above 60 per cent of the size of the economy. And the brains behind several of those derivatives were the men and women of Goldman Sachs.

The bank's traders created a number of financial deals that allowed Greece to raise money to cut its budget deficit immediately, in return for repayments over time. In one deal, Goldman channelled $1bn of funding to the Greek government in 2002 in a transaction called a cross-currency swap. On the other side of the deal, working in the National Bank of Greece, was Petros Christodoulou, who had begun his career at Goldman, and who has been promoted now to head the office managing government Greek debt. Lucas Papademos, now installed as Prime Minister in Greece's unity government, was a technocrat running the Central Bank of Greece at the time.

Goldman says that the debt reduction achieved by the swaps was negligible in relation to euro rules, but it expressed some regrets over the deals. Gerald Corrigan, a Goldman partner who came to the bank after running the New York branch of the US Federal Reserve, told a UK parliamentary hearing last year: "It is clear with hindsight that the standards of transparency could have been and probably should have been higher."

When the issue was raised at confirmation hearings in the European Parliament for his job at the ECB, Mr Draghi says he wasn't involved in the swaps deals either at the Treasury or at Goldman.

It has proved impossible to hold the line on Greece, which under the latest EU proposals is effectively going to default on its debt by asking creditors to take a "voluntary" haircut of 50 per cent on its bonds, but the current consensus in the eurozone is that the creditors of bigger nations like Italy and Spain must be paid in full. These creditors, of course, are the continent's big banks, and it is their health that is the primary concern of policymakers. The combination of austerity measures imposed by the new technocratic governments in Athens and Rome and the leaders of other eurozone countries, such as Ireland, and rescue funds from the IMF and the largely German-backed European Financial Stability Facility, can all be traced to this consensus.

"My former colleagues at the IMF are running around trying to justify bailouts of €1.5trn-€4trn, but what does that mean?" says Simon Johnson. "It means bailing out the creditors 100 per cent. It is another bank bailout, like in 2008: The mechanism is different, in that this is happening at the sovereign level not the bank level, but the rationale is the same."

So certain is the financial elite that the banks will be bailed out, that some are placing bet-the-company wagers on just such an outcome. Jon Corzine, a former chief executive of Goldman Sachs, returned to Wall Street last year after almost a decade in politics and took control of a historic firm called MF Global. He placed a $6bn bet with the firm's money that Italian government bonds will not default.

When the bet was revealed last month, clients and trading partners decided it was too risky to do business with MF Global and the firm collapsed within days. It was one of the ten biggest bankruptcies in US history.

The grave danger is that, if Italy stops paying its debts, creditor banks could be made insolvent. Goldman Sachs, which has written over $2trn of insurance, including an undisclosed amount on eurozone countries' debt, would not escape unharmed, especially if some of the $2trn of insurance it has purchased on that insurance turns out to be with a bank that has gone under. No bank – and especially not the Vampire Squid – can easily untangle its tentacles from the tentacles of its peers. This is the rationale for the bailouts and the austerity, the reason we are getting more Goldman, not less. The alternative is a second financial crisis, a second economic collapse.

Shared illusions, perhaps? Who would dare test it?

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/what-price-the-new-democracy-goldman-sachs-conquers-europe-6264091.html
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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Last Edit: 18 Aug 2013 21:32 by novum.
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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 21:50 #43

As worries over Greece rattle world markets, records and interviews show that with Wall Street’s help, the nation engaged in a decade-long effort to skirt European debt limits. One deal created by Goldman Sachs helped obscure billions in debt from the budget overseers in Brussels.
It's like what I said, how does this reflect negatively on the EU? How does Greek politicians and Private Bankers obscuring billions from "Budget Overseers in the EU" reflect badly on the EU?
Unless you're saying the EU, IMF, these kind of institutions aren't doing enough, you seem to be saying they should do more be tougher and more involved in nation states like Greece?
Well the eurozone crisis was not simply a banking sector crash there were more factors, but yes i know people who see participation in the EU as a bad thing
Sure everyone knows at least one nationalist.
No i do pay attention to how corporations are doing. They are doing just fine for the most part, and will continue to do so. It doesnt make a difference who i watch, i see what is happening with corporations, and i see what is happening to peoples real disposable income and the economies of the west. Wealth inequality in the west is increasing.
you do raise some good points there for debate.
the interest rates for starters show what is happening, the common people so to speak arent borrowing, they arent investing, they have little confidence in the economy, many businesses cant compete with corporations at all , which was not the case in the past. Corporations also go out of their way to put small businesses out of business, they will undercut them and behave in the most cuntish (for want of a better word) of ways until they are forced to close shop all the time, complaints to politicians fall on deaf ears.
So you're basically complaining because the freemarket is dominated by monopoly groups on one hand, then on the other hand you're complaining about the only institutions adequately set up to deal with such companies, ie the IMF, EU, UN, one because you say they are part of a collectivist conspiracy (that in some ways you support and in others reject), and the other because they don't exercise enough power against Nation States in economic matters etc.

Your opinions are coming across slightly contradictory at times.

Do you understand/agree with this video Nov:
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 18 Aug 2013 22:08 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 22:14 #44

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
It's like what I said, how does this reflect negatively on the EU? How does Greek politicians and Private Bankers obscuring billions from "Budget Overseers in the EU" reflect badly on the EU?
Unless you're saying the EU, IMF, these kind of institutions aren't doing enough, you seem to be saying they should do more be tougher and more involved in nation states like Greece?

What im saying is that people have said they preferred none of this occured in the first place, greece had to comply with things set out by the EU, and some say its economy could not comply, would never comply, with these things, without some huge changes, that is how some see it. And now that things have changed to accomodate, the common man is worse off for the most part.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Sure everyone knows at least one nationalist.

As you are aware of yourself, you have seen the rise of Golden Dawn in greece, and the seats in parliament they hold, so its beyond a minority feeling this way now isnt it.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
So you're basically complaining because the freemarket is dominated by monopoly groups on one hand, then on the other hand you're complaining about the only institutions adequately set up to deal with such companies, ie the IMF, EU, UN, one because you say they are part of a collectivist conspiracy (that in some ways you support and in others reject), and the other because they don't exercise enough power against Nation States in economic matters etc.

Your opinions are coming across slightly contradictory at times.

Well it is your opinion that these institutions will adequately deal with such companies. Deal with them in the interests of whom? the little guy?

The way i see it, corporations control politics/politicians and therefore nation states, these corporations become more powerful over time.

What you are saying is that these organisations will keep the big corporations in check, but lets suppose they dont for a moment, lets entertain this thought.... what if these same powerful and wealthy corporate interests hold sway over these organisations? .... that would mean we have corporate interests affecting policy and decisions in these organisations, just as they have in nation states. Same result.

Again id like to share your optimism regarding these organisations but i dont see much reason to right now. I guess we wait it out and see hey. :larf:


Mario Draghi is an Italian banker and economist who succeeded Jean-Claude Trichet as the President of the European Central Bank on 1 November 2011. He was previously the governor of the Bank of Italy from January 2006 until October 2011.

In 2012 Forbes nominated Draghi 8th most powerful person in the world.

Draghi was vice chairman and managing director of Goldman Sachs International and a member of the firm-wide management committee (2002–2005).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Draghi


I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 22:27 #45

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Do you understand/agree with this video Nov:

I have listened to Steve Keen before actually on other things, I always have time for what he has to say because ive seen some of his concerns and predictions play out and occur after the fact.

He is saying austerity wont work in that video and it will make the problem worse.

Yet we see the ex goldman bankers who preside over the EU states such as greece and italy implementing austerity right? :larf:

And the ones who provided/provide private debt are of course banks as well.
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 22:35 #46

novum wrote:
Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
It's like what I said, how does this reflect negatively on the EU? How does Greek politicians and Private Bankers obscuring billions from "Budget Overseers in the EU" reflect badly on the EU?
Unless you're saying the EU, IMF, these kind of institutions aren't doing enough, you seem to be saying they should do more be tougher and more involved in nation states like Greece?

What im saying is that people have said they preferred none of this occured in the first place, greece had to comply with things set out by the EU, and some say its economy could not comply, would never comply, with these things, without some huge changes, that is how some see it. And now that things have changed to accomodate, the common man is worse off for the most part.Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Sure everyone knows at least one nationalist.

As you are aware of yourself, you have seen the rise of Golden Dawn in greece, and the seats in parliament they hold, so its beyond a minority feeling this way now isnt it.
A majority believed the party line in Germany circa 1930, what is populist is not necessarily true.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
So you're basically complaining because the freemarket is dominated by monopoly groups on one hand, then on the other hand you're complaining about the only institutions adequately set up to deal with such companies, ie the IMF, EU, UN, one because you say they are part of a collectivist conspiracy (that in some ways you support and in others reject), and the other because they don't exercise enough power against Nation States in economic matters etc.

Your opinions are coming across slightly contradictory at times.

Well it is your opinion that these institutions will adequately deal with such companies. Deal with them in the interests of whom? the little guy?
Technocrats mediate the interests of people and business, why do they do that?
Imo their objectives are purely conservative, to avoid massive public outrage and upheaval they are obliged to reform the system, cap bankers salaries, bring in European minimum wage rules improve the standards to avoid uprising, that's why they are a technocracy, that is their job, the freemarket system has given rise to that situation.
The way i see it, corporations control politics/politicians and therefore nation states, these corporations become more powerful over time.
All politicians? I think it's a needlessly vague way of viewing things, financial reason dominates politics, that's true, but corporations don't "control politics/politicians", that's ridiculous, some Corporations have lobbyists in government though that's true.

What you are saying is that these organisations will keep the big corporations in check, but lets suppose they dont for a moment, lets entertain this thought.... what if these same powerful and wealthy corporate interests hold sway over these organisations? .... that would mean we have corporate interests affecting policy and decisions in these organisations, just as they have in nation states. Same result.

Again id like to share your optimism regarding these organisations but i dont see much reason to right now. I guess we wait it out and see hey.
As I said in the OP in the West we have Totalitarianism of the Market called democracy, I'm not saying these institutions will "keep corporations in check" i'm saying they're the only institutions set up to serve that end and Gedward Griffin and most CTers propagandize against them because of that.

Offer me an alternative institution to the IMF or EU that could mediate the interests of exploitative corporations or nation states and the people, the US and the EU are currently going after tax avoiders in a big way, there are various criminal investigations underway what more could they do?

Especially when people are opposed to them, media is dominated by corporate interests and many of these huge multinationals as you rightly say hold more sway and power in the world than the Politicians, essentially we agree the system needs reform I think you've fallen into the CT trap of just being negative about certain things.

Mario Draghi is an Italian banker and economist who succeeded Jean-Claude Trichet as the President of the European Central Bank on 1 November 2011. He was previously the governor of the Bank of Italy from January 2006 until October 2011.

In 2012 Forbes nominated Draghi 8th most powerful person in the world.

Draghi was vice chairman and managing director of Goldman Sachs International and a member of the firm-wide management committee (2002–2005).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Draghi
It's not like Draghi would have been overseeing each of GS traders though would he?
I don't buy this guilt by association thing, just because somebody worked somewhere doesn't make them criminal, there are however a load of examples of criminal traders so why not focus on them and not just former corporate execs now in the Technocracy?
Why wouldn't government regulators or NGOs with similar aims recruit the best in the field, why wouldn't the hire former high level banking employees, Draghi was clearly no Bob Diamond or he's be under investigation right now.
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 18 Aug 2013 22:40 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 22:48 #47

novum wrote:
Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Do you understand/agree with this video Nov:

I have listened to Steve Keen before actually on other things, I always have time for what he has to say because ive seen some of his concerns and predictions play out and occur after the fact.

He is saying austerity wont work in that video and it will make the problem worse.

Yet we see the ex goldman bankers who preside over the EU states such as greece and italy implementing austerity right? :larf:

And the ones who provided/provide private debt are of course banks as well.
But there are also GS bankers that speak out against Austerity, so that kind of contradicts your Idea that it's GS pushing austerity, everyone who hasn't been deceived by Left Vs Right knows it's right wing reactionaries who promote austerity, and I certainly don't doubt they exist within the EU or GS, but to tarnish the whole institution, or everyone who's ever worked there because of it is pretty ignorant imo.
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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 23:17 #48

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
what is populist is not necessarily true.

Yes but it does reflect the growning concerns of ordinary folk, that much is true. Its not business as usual for the common folk, they dont like what they see, and are reacting as you know.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Technocrats mediate the interests of people and business, why do they do that?
Imo their objectives are purely conservative, to avoid massive public outrage and upheaval they are obliged to reform the system, cap bankers salaries, bring in European minimum wage rules improve the standards to avoid uprising, that's why they are a technocracy, that is their job, the freemarket system has given rise to that situation.

Perhaps, or perhaps they are there to ensure a balance is kept in the way that they ensure the common people are given just enough to survive and consume, while protecting corporate interests. It is the corporate interests who have the money to pay technocrats not the common people.

If they get the balance wrong then the elite and corporations can be adversely affected, for example if there was widespread uprising/non compliance from the masses.

I mean we saw Charles and Camilla shit themselves when a few eggs were thrown at their car and plebs came at it, imagine if they were really in the shit? :larf: They cant have that.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
All politicians? I think it's a needlessly vague way of viewing things, financial reason dominates politics, that's true, but corporations don't "control politics/politicians", that's ridiculous, some Corporations have lobbyists in government though that's true.

Yes i mean through lobby groups. Look i dont think you can be 'in' if you dont tow the line ok? If you wanted to be president of the USA for example, and stop funding KBR and Raytheon and pull out of the middle east, no i dont think you stand a chance of being in any real position of power in this day and age.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
As I said in the OP in the West we have Totalitarianism of the Market called democracy, I'm not saying these institutions will "keep corporations in check" i'm saying they're the only institutions set up to serve that end and Gedward Griffin and most CTers propagandize against them because of that.

Im not sure it is 'because of that' ... perhaps their concerns are the same as others, like some of the info i have posted here, more power in the hands of fewer elite. Legitimate concerns as to whats ahead.

Look i think we are all self serving at the end of the day, even me, well most of us anyway, most people, and perhaps those who oppose increased centralization of power just think its going to be worse for them and the people around them.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Offer me an alternative institution to the IMF or EU that could mediate the interests of exploitative corporations or nation states and the people, the US and the EU are currently going after tax avoiders in a big way, there are various criminal investigations underway what more could they do?

Especially when people are opposed to them, media is dominated by corporate interests and many of these huge multinationals as you rightly say hold more sway and power in the world than the Politicians, essentially we agree the system needs reform I think you've fallen into the CT trap of just being negative about certain things.

Yes i do agree the system needs reform, but when i see Goldman Sachs hand and footprints all over everything, including things where im living that are directly affecting my way of life, its difficult to not at least be cynical and think that these corporations will not be kept in check anytime soon. :yup:

As for an alternative to centralized powers, well i dont see anything wrong with institutions that want to administer checks and balances per se, the thing is, who polices the police is my concern... id like to think their intentions are pure, but again when i see the likes of Goldman Sachs involved i cant help but think that self serving interests are at play.

Time will tell hey, as they say, truth is the child of time.
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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The Cold War 18 Aug 2013 23:31 #49

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
But there are also GS bankers that speak out against Austerity, so that kind of contradicts your Idea that it's GS pushing austerity, everyone who hasn't been deceived by Left Vs Right knows it's right wing reactionaries who promote austerity, and I certainly don't doubt they exist within the EU or GS, but to tarnish the whole institution, or everyone who's ever worked there because of it is pretty ignorant imo.

No matter if there are GS bankers speaking out or not, the end result is austerity, the greater powers in those organisations and/or governments must and do want austerity and that is what is happening. It reminds me a little of politicians who speak out against wars, but the funding never stops flowing to lockheed, raytheon and KBR.

You might say its ignorant but others might say its naive to think that ambitious bankers, career persons, arent self serving. And that means pleasing themselves and also the source of their biggest paychecks first and foremost if we entertain that (imo plausible) thought.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
It's not like Draghi would have been overseeing each of GS traders though would he?
I don't buy this guilt by association thing, just because somebody worked somewhere doesn't make them criminal, there are however a load of examples of criminal traders so why not focus on them and not just former corporate execs now in the Technocracy?
Why wouldn't government regulators or NGOs with similar aims recruit the best in the field, why wouldn't the hire former high level banking employees, Draghi was clearly no Bob Diamond or he's be under investigation right now.

I agree they recruit the best, but the question is the best at doing what exactly and for whom, as i said see above.
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

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Last Edit: 18 Aug 2013 23:38 by novum.
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The Cold War 19 Aug 2013 07:53 #50

I'll answer you around 2pm I gotta go sell some books now and don't wanna rush, have a nice day see you later :)
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 19 Aug 2013 16:01 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
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The Cold War 19 Aug 2013 14:35 #51

t'was a slow day in the book shop so I wrote down a response to you on the subject of the EU.
In the context of this thread we're talking about a new period of history succeeding the Cold War and the West's victory in that ideological, economic and political conflict.

The victory of the West has given rise to the unfettered, unrestrained accumulation of profit and this becoming an encouraged aspiration, attitude and eventually lifestyle (for those who succeed, the rest endure a life of keeping their head above water serving economic interests they rarely understand) in the modern Consumerist West.

Particularly during and also in the wake of the cold war, socialist organisations, socialist tendencies and the reforms made by previous socialist political groups(especially in the UK and USA) have been systematically attacked and continuously weakened, under the dictatorship of the Markets people's consumerist lifestyles are enjoyed in the pursuit of purely private profits, at great cost to the institutions of the Public, political spheres, their promotion and progress.

Despite the Maastricht Treaty and the EU's theoretical goal to Centralize weatlh, power and economic policy making, if you look at the Eurozone and actually analyze the various member states, in reality there has not been greater centralization under the EU but greater divergence with many Nation States as you rightly say becoming a hot bed of anti European sentiment.

If you Analyze the EU members states, and their various economic policies they are very obviously not centrally decided in the EU, a good comparison would be say the German and French economic policy which could be said to be pro-EU and very Socially progressive, with the UK which is quite obviously more interested in retaining a booming Financial Services sector and holding an in-out referendum to be decided by Public sentiment and Media lobbyists (of whichever persuasion).

German French Economic policy still diverges greatly, as do the economic aspirations and personal national interests of pretty much every Nation in the EU, some of them agree on some things some nations disagree about a lot of things, there is no central policy enacted throughout the EU really, what little there is is consistently undermined by euro sceptics.

In the way in which various Governments have attempted to deal with, or have dealt with the Private debt Crisis and it's effects, there is much divergence within Europe and it is still dependent on the Political party in control of the Nation State, the Nation State -as you also highlighted above- is completely dominated by the Bourgeoisie of the nation, the Nation State has a vested interest in maintaining things which grow it's economy, even if (as in the case of the UK or Switzerland), those Nations' financial industry causes other nations harm, ie Raytheon doing all their tax and banking in Switzerland.

To say "Because there is an attempt at greater centralization of resources, there is greater centralization of resources" is not necessarily true, despite appearing superficially to be a tautology, upon analysis I can find no evidence of the EU having much success in Centralization of resources, power, wealth etc.

In your criticism of a couple of specific institutions, and general rejection of increasing governmental ability to deal with Vulture capitalists, I think you neglect the analysis of the underlying causes within the Nation state that essentially are attributable to the Economic, Educational and Industrial system of the respective Nation State, and the fact that post internal and international persecution of Communists financial/bourgeois interests more or less completely dictate the politics of their Nation States.

The dominance of economic reason and competing National/Private interests gives rise to constant competition and all the instability this entails, in order to avert complete social disintegration in the wake of the Private debt Crisis, in which lot's of people made millions, the EU has begun taking a tougher line towards Corporations, Bankers and individuals that avoid Tax.

So we shouldn't really be surprised when the Private media tycoons (who are no doubt also avoiding tax) are using their media outlets to foment anti-EU sentiment, spending Millions backing Euroskeptic Political Parties, and pandering to small minded, nationalist UK sentiment by scaremongering about IMmigration and EU membership.

But we should be critical.
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 19 Aug 2013 15:46 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
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The Cold War 19 Aug 2013 15:42 #52

novum wrote:
Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Do you understand/agree with this video Nov:

I have listened to Steve Keen before actually on other things, I always have time for what he has to say because ive seen some of his concerns and predictions play out and occur after the fact.

He is saying austerity wont work in that video and it will make the problem worse.

Yet we see the ex goldman bankers who preside over the EU states such as greece and italy implementing austerity right? :larf:

And the ones who provided/provide private debt are of course banks as well.
It seems to force home the name Goldman Sachs you kind of tarnish the point a little bit, Austerity really has little to do with GS, tackle the problem of Austerity by all means I encourage it, but to just say it's part of the GS project or that is imo clouding the issue.
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The Cold War 19 Aug 2013 16:11 #53

What the Lib Dems say:
“The EU is not a state with a fixed constitution. It is a constantly changing organisation that must adapt to the challenges faced by its member states if it is to remain of added value. In the 1950s, it was focused on promoting post-war reconciliation and feeding Europe’s population. The emphasis then moved to promoting free trade with the creation of the single market, driven by Margaret Thatcher. More recently, the end of the Cold War in the 1990s precipitated the spreading of democracy and prosperity across the continent through the process of EU enlargement.

The big challenges now faced by European countries: the debt crisis, declining competitiveness, tax evasion, climate change, terrorism and organised crime, require new solutions. In a globalised world, the ability of individual countries to manage powerful social, environmental and economic changes from within their own borders has been significantly reduced. We must work together in order to address common problems, promote shared interests, and maintain control over the forces of globalisation. The inescapable truth is that countries such as Britain no longer carry the same weight on their own today as they did in the past. Europe is about regaining sovereignty, not losing it.”

In other words, the UK will increasingly NEED the EU as the XXI century develops. A point that was made in a previous LDV article: www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-21st-century-britain-will-need-the-european-union-34269.html
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The Cold War 19 Aug 2013 19:28 #54

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The so-called cold war was a FARCE - just like everything you learn at school and from the msm about "history" before and after it.

The last war never stopped!

It was only transferred to a more subtle level.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
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Last Edit: 20 Aug 2013 00:20 by PFIZIPFEI.
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The Cold War 19 Aug 2013 21:52 #55

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Thanks for the contributions Seeker, some good points to consider there.

And im well aware of the massive corruption and tax avoidance in the nation states, yes, i know it was a huge problem in Greece for one, with some of the wealthier avoiding tax, and meanwhile those lower on the socio-economic ladder were paying their share.

It couldnt/cant go on this way.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
The victory of the West has given rise to the unfettered, unrestrained accumulation of profit and this becoming an encouraged aspiration, attitude and eventually lifestyle (for those who succeed, the rest endure a life of keeping their head above water serving economic interests they rarely understand) in the modern Consumerist West.

:up:
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
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The Cold War 20 Aug 2013 00:10 #56

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The real problem is that tptb keep the common people in ignorance about the real history and this won't change if the "common people" don't want to get themselves informed about reality.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
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