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TOPIC: The Carthage Empire

The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 07:08 #1

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Seems that the Carthaginian's ruled the Mediterranean area for many years before the Romans inflicted a ''holocaust'' on them, spending an entire year wiping everything to do with them off the face of the earth.
In fact making it look like the Romans had invented such a culture, it seems like the Romans stole the Carthage Empire.

The Romans were firstly getting their arses kicked at sea left right and centre by the superior Carthage navy, where things appear to have gone wrong for the Carthaginians is they had something like ''flat pack'' battle ships, with every piece of the ship marked with a code.

Once the Romans had captured a Carthage battle ship, they noticed the coded parts and quickly made a fleet of their own, they were then able to use the Carthage battle ships for themselves and won a long sea battle.

After years of extorting fees from the Carthaginian's the Romans got their arses kicked again, Hannibal (a Carthaginian) got to the gates of Rome but was distracted, the Romans were lucky then, some time later the Romans realized that Carthage was still prosperous, had valuable assets such as gold, silver, olives (fuel oil) etc.... And had payed off the war fees imposed by the Romans 40 years early.

The Romans inspected Carthage and found that they had more battle ships and arms than were permitted, so the Romans sent a massive army over and wiped Carthage out, spending a year after the battle destroying/burning every building.

By the time they had finished there was nothing left of the Carthage Empire at all, yet then the Romans built from Carthage society ships and buildings, as if they had been of Roman innovation, though it appears to be that they stole the Carthage empire.

There is one small Carthage town that was not totally destroyed, in the archaeology there, the Carthage buildings (homes) had baths, and other home luxuries, in fact they had such things that no other society in the Mediterranean had, many years before the Romans.

The Romans then destroyed evidence of Carthage's Empire, as to not have evidence of a far superior society to their own, then they portrayed Carthaginian's as ''child killers'' that did evil child sacrifice such as throwing children into burning pits, they were thieves, cheats, stupid, untrustworthy.

So basically they stole the Carthage empire through battle, destroyed everything, then rebuilt it as their own, and painted the Carthaginians as a bunch of imbeciles who sacrifice their children. Whilst covertly using the Carthage superior range of utilities.

There is a good documentary about it here...

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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 07:55 #2

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As can be seen here on the tourists video, the baths still remain in the small Punic town of Kerkouane.
Dating from the 4th century BC, kerkouane is a remarkable survival of a purely Punic town. It was destroyed in 236 BC and unearthed in 1952.



en.tunisientunisie.com/tunisia-archaeological-site-of-kerkouane/

As can be seen here, the Punic wars started much later, so the above baths etc... are not Roman.

In Ancient Rome, elegant men were described as lauteus, which literally translates as well washed. Baths started appearing as early as the mid-third century B.C.in the private homes of wealthy Romans. It was in the second century B.C. that the first public baths in Rome emerged.
academic.mu.edu/meissnerd/romanbath.html

So the Romans had baths 50-100 years after the Carthaginians.
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 08:38 #3

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Seems like the Carthaginians had an alphabet before the Romans.
Phoenician/Canaanite Phoenician (Kana'nīm)

Origins
The Phoenician alphabet developed from the Proto-Canaanite alphabet, during the 15th century BC. Before then the Phoenicians wrote with a cuneiform script. The earliest known inscriptions in the Phoenician alphabet come from Byblos and date back to 1000 BC.

The Phoenician alphabet was perhaps the first alphabetic script to be widely-used - the Phoenicians traded around the Mediterraean and beyond, and set up cities and colonies in parts of southern Europe and North Africa - and the origins of most alphabetic writing systems can be traced back to the Phoenician alphabet, including Greek, Etruscan, Latin, Arabic and Hebrew, as well as the scripts of India and East Asia.

Notable features
Type of writing system: abjad / consonant alphabet with no vowel indication
Direction of writing: right to left in hortizontal lines. Sometimes boustrophedon.
Number of letters: 22 - there was considerable variation in their forms in different regions and at different times.
The names of the letters are acrophonic, and their names and shapes can be ultimately traced back to Egyptian Hieroglyphs. For example, the name of the first letter, 'aleph, means ox and developed from a picture of an ox's head. Some of the letter names were changed by the Phoenicians, including gimel, which meant camel in Phoenician, but was originally a picture of a throwing stick (giml).
Used to write
Phoenician, a Northern Semitic language which originated in about the 11th century BC in what is now Lebannon, Syria and Israel, an area then known as Pūt in Ancient Egyptian, Canaan in Phoenician, Hebrew and Aramaic, Phoenicia in Greek and Latin.

Phoenician spread around the Mediterranean, particularly to Tunisia, southern parts of the Iberian peninsula (modern Spain and Portugal), Malta, southern France and Sicily, and was spoken until the 1st century AD.

A variant of Phoenician, known as Punic, was spoken in Carthage, a Phoencian colony in what is now Tunisia, until the 6th century AD.

The native name for the language was (dabari-m) Pōnnīm/Kana'nīm, which means "Punic/Canaanite (speech)"

Phoenician alphabet

www.omniglot.com/writing/phoenician.htm
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 09:00 #4

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Carthage:A Civilization Ahead of its Time

Lessons for Today¡¯s World from an Ancient Society

M¡¯hamed Fantar
Professor,Ben Ali Chair for Dialogue among Civilizations and Religions, Tunisia

[Professor M¡¯hamed Fantar of Tunis El Manar University visited Korea from May 1 to 8 to discuss ways to promote academic exchange between Korea and Tunisia. Professor Fantar, a distinguished scholar of ancient civilizations and religious studies, shared his knowledge about the civilization of Carthage with Korea¡¯s academic circles.]

Today, much of what people know about the ancient civilization of Carthage is based on Greek and Roman historical records. In addition, the artifacts of the ancient society of Carthage, including architectural remains, tombs, earthenware, and jewelry, also serve as valuable sources of information about the people and culture from this long ago time.

Advanced Democracy of Carthage
Carthage maintained a democratic political system that was based on elections. A Greek philosopher regarded the constitution of Carthage as being more advanced than that of the ancient Greek city-states because it attained a careful balance between the aristocrats, middle class, and common people of Carthaginian society. An administrative head was known as a ¡°suffet,¡± or judge. The constitution of Carthage outlined the governmental system that included a legislature, administration, and judiciary, which were established through an electoral process.
The Carthaginians actively engaged in agricultural pursuits, with an emphasis on fruit-bearing trees, such as olive, fig, and pomegranate, along with grape vines and rice plants. It is widely recognized that Mago, a Carthaginian scholar, wrote encyclopedic texts on agriculture in the fourth century B.C. The Carthaginian people also promoted a variety of industries, including pottery, mining, and jewelry making. As confirmed by Carthaginian records, they took much pride in their craftsmanship and industrial skills. Merchants from Carthage had a talent for building robust trade relations thanks to their fleet of vessels that linked together the major civilizations of the Mediterranean region. The people of Carthage were skilled navigators with a bold sense of exploration. With this maritime capability, Admiral Hanno was able to sail across the Mediterranean to Gibraltar, from where he made his way along the African coast to Cameron, before returning home to Carthage. This voyage, in the fifth century B.C., was an effort to discover routes for gold. As for Admiral Himilco, after passing through the Strait of Gibraltar he headed northward and reached the British Isles, in the fifth century B.C., establishing the prowess of Carthage as a dominant naval power of ancient times.

Civil and Open Society
Carthaginian society was characterized by civility and openness. It was a vibrant society that enabled the coexistence of various classes related to economic standing, social status, and political influence. It was divided into three classes of regular citizens, foreigners, and slaves. Citizens enjoyed freedom and citizenship, along with maintaining property rights and having cultural knowledge.
They contributed to the building of a sound society and state by fulfilling their political, administrative, and religious obligations. Those who accumulated wealth emerged as the forefront of society and played a key role in various sectors, including the economy, politics, religion, and culture. As a center of maritime routes in the Mediterranean region, Carthage enjoyed the economic benefits of region-wide trade and exchange. Craftsmen were part of the middle class who engaged in various commercial and business lines, including blacksmith, jewelry, accessories, and ceramics.
There were communities of various foreign groups, including the Greeks, Egyptians, and Iberians, in Carthage and other large Phoenician cities. The foreigners included Greeks and Egyptians who engaged in commercial trade, but most were lowincome persons that had sought refuge in Carthage due to political suppression in their home country.
The openness of Carthage society allowed the inclusion of various social classes, including people from foreign countries.

Slavery and Women¡¯s Rights
In ancient times, slavery was a common aspect of everyday society. In Carthage, however, slaves were treated as human beings who were granted basic rights. They had a right to visit a temple for worship, and to marry and accumulate savings to buy their freedom. The process of liberating slaves was governed by legal procedures.
Although not allowed to participate directly in the political process, women could engage in religious and economic endeavors. There are records about women who became priests and also leaders of religious councils. The courage of Carthaginian women during the wars against the Romans has been highly lauded in historical documents. Women would cut their hair so that it could be woven into ropes that troops on land and at sea used for the defense of their country. Moreover, the city of Carthage was actually founded by a woman called Elisa, or Dido. Today, the fact that women in Tunisia enjoy the same rights as men seems to be somewhat rooted in this ancient development.

Spread of Influence
The Carthaginians gathered regularly to worship their gods. They believed in Baal Hammon and his wife Tanit. People would make their way to the Tophet, a sanctuary dedicated to their two gods, to offer money and tribute. According to custom, children who died young would be cremated and buried at the Tophet. According to their belief in Baal, families who experienced the loss of children would be rewarded by the gods.
Carthaginian society, played an important role in spreading its civilization to various Mediterranean states, including Sardinia, Sicily, and Spain. It also contributed to the spread of its alphabet to the Western areas of the Mediterranean. The Phoenicians introduced their alphabet and writing system to Greek cities, which remain in use in various countries in the Arab world and Europe. All of the writing systems in these countries originated from the Phoenician alphabet. Carthage was a center of learning of this alphabet, which facilitated the promotion of scholarship and knowledge in various countries throughout the Mediterranean. Moreover, the Phoenician alphabet serves as the foundation for knowledge and democracy.
Previously, writing was a privilege accorded only to the elite of society, like aristocrats and high priests.
At the time of the pharaohs, it was not possible for the common people to learn Egyptian reading and writing. However, the Phoenicians created an alphabet that contained 22 characters, so that everyone, regardless of social or economic status, could learn to read and write. This writing system thus contributed to the dissemination of democracy as well as literature and philosophy.

newsletter.kf.or.kr/english/contents.asp?vol=94&lang=English&no=1114
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 12:33 #5

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So... why werent the carthaginians clever enough to keep the romans out. :hahano:
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 14:15 #6

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novum wrote:
So... why werent the carthaginians clever enough to keep the romans out. :hahano:

Expose overpowered by to many hired retards!

Why Hitler did not manage to get rid of all the retards at the time?

Same thing expose ......... complotting profit seeking retards is majority throughout history.

Clevererness would not do much good if you facing ten to one! ....... better walk in the opposite direction or up a high mount would be the Clever move in such situation.

A few shekels on your side & you can buy & hire many, many retards to do the dirty bedding for you!
I wonder how much the ISIS setup costs them per month? ........... but no shortage on shekels I would say!

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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 14:17 #7

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novum wrote:
So... why werent the carthaginians clever enough to keep the romans out. :hahano:

Seems that they were a good naval force but a nation of traders rather than warriors, the Romans just kept at them and researched Carthage technology, as I say it was partly down to these superior battle ships that they had, there weakness was the way they built these ships, they were coded parts, a bit like Ikea furniture, quick and easy for the Carthaginians to assemble, the problem was that the Romans apparently managed to capture an entire ship, and note the code parts, they made hundreds in a matter of months.

The Romans were also installed with a fight and die for the cause philosophy, the Carthaginians had grown an empire from trade, rather than battle.

Though Hannibal gave the Romans a kicking, he even got to the gates of Rome, though the Romans then attacked Carthage and he went back there, thus Rome was saved and they got Hannibal later when he was weaker, his army had been mainly mercenaries not Carthaginians.

The point is is that the Romans had not quite the innovation as is thought, much of their society superiority was taken from Carthage, as is their battleships and navy as a basis.

People get taught how the Romans invented this or that, well that just might not always be true, they went to such lengths to destroy all traces of Carthaginian innovation as to make them themselves out as the superior society.
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The Carthage Empire - Semitic Superiority Complex 21 Jun 2015 14:26 #8

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What I read up to now of bt's history relativization attempt is exactly what other .... semites also claim:

- holocaust
- persecution
- singular ingeniousness and wealthy traders
- thus envyous enemies
- who stole their inventions, destroyed their empire, called them child sacrifiers/burners


Same old, same old ... but very interesting to see how far and deep their narrative is going back in time.


Carthage was one of a number of Phoenician settlements in the western Mediterranean that were created to facilitate trade from the cities of Sidon, Tyre and others from Phoenicia, which was situated in the coast of what is now Lebanon. In the 10th century BC, the eastern Mediterranean shore was inhabited by various Semitic populations, who had built up flourishing civilizations. The people inhabiting what is now Lebanon, were referred to as Phoenicians by the Greeks. The Phoenician language was very close to ancient Hebrew, to such a degree that the latter is often used as an aid in translation of Phoenician inscriptions.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Carthage




English liapedia does not mention MOLOCH:

Anfangs wurden in Karthago, wie im phönizischen Mutterland üblich, Astarte und Melkart als Hauptgötter verehrt. Ab dem 5. Jahrhundert v. Chr. entwickelten sich Tanit und Baal-Hammon zu den Hauptgöttern Karthagos. Tanit wurde als Schutzpatronin der Stadt verehrt, ihr Gemahl Baal Hammon galt als Fruchtbarkeitsgott. Eine weitere bedeutende Gottheit im Pantheon der Karthager war Eschmun. Auch fremde Kulte wie der der ägyptischen Göttin Isis wurden in Karthago praktiziert.

Es gilt als wahrscheinlich, dass die Karthager Menschenopfer praktizierten. Antike Autoren wie Diodor und Plutarch berichten, dass Kinder, vornehmlich Erstgeborene aus wohlhabenden Familien, einer Molochstatue in die Arme gelegt und durch einen Mechanismus in ein Feuer fallengelassen wurden. Die schriftliche Überlieferung wird durch Funde von Knochen kleiner Kinder auf dem Tofet von Karthago gestützt.
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karthago#Religion

FERTILITY GOD - phallus cult


Ba'al-Hamon (Punic: lbʻl ḥmn, "Ruler of a Crowd or Multitude") was the chief god of Carthage. He was a deity of sky and vegetation, depicted as a bearded older man with curling ram's horns. Baʿal Hammon's female cult partner was Tanit.

BA'AL HAMON

=> THE HORNED MOSES :)



The worship of Baʿal Hammon flourished in the Phoenician colony of Carthage. His supremacy among the Carthaginian gods is believed to date to the 5th century BC, after relations between Carthage and Tyre were broken off at the time of the Punic defeat in Himera. Modern scholars identify him variously with the Northwest Semitic god EL or with Dagon.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal-hamon


The origins of Tanit are to be found in the pantheon of Ugarit, especially in the Ugaritic goddess Anat (Hvidberg-Hansen 1982), a consumer of blood and flesh. There is significant, albeit disputed, evidence, both archaeological and within ancient written sources, pointing towards child sacrifice forming part of the worship of Tanit and Baal Hammon.

BAAL MAMMON ? Another translation mistake ? :coolio:

"Tophet" is a term derived from the Bible, used to refer to a site near Jerusalem at which Canaanites and Israelites who strayed from Judaism by practicing Canaanite idolatry would sacrifice children. It is now used as a general term for all such sites with cremated human and animal remains. The Hebrew Bible does not specify that the Israelite victims were buried, only burned, although the "place of burning" was probably adjacent to the place of burial. We have no idea how the Phoenicians themselves referred to the places of burning or burial, or to the practice itself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanit#Archaeological_evidence



Truly interesting subject!
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 14:44 #9

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The Carthaginians were notorious in antiquity for the intensity of their religious beliefs, which they retained to the end of their independence and which in turn influenced the religion of the Libyans.

The chief deity was Baal Hammon, the community's divine lord and protector, who was identified by the Greeks with Cronus and by the Romans with Saturn. During the 5th century a goddess named Tanit (the equivalent of the Phoenician goddess Astarte) came to be widely worshipped and represented in art. It is possible that her name is Libyan and that her popularity was connected with the acquisition of land in the interior, as she is associated with symbols of fertility. These two overshadow other deities such as Melqart, principal deity of Tyre, identified with Heracles, and Eshmoun, identified with Asclepius. The Greek gods Demeter and Persephone and the Roman goddess Juno were adapted to later religious patterns of the Carthaginians.

Human sacrifice was the element in Carthaginian religion most criticized; it persisted in Africa much longer than in Phoenicia, probably into the 3rd century. The child victims were sacrificed to Baal (not to Moloch, an interpretation based on a misunderstanding of the texts) and the burned bones buried in urns under stone markers, or stelae. At Carthage thousands of such urns have been found in the "Sanctuary of Tanit," and similar burials have been discovered at Hadrumetum, Cirta, Motya, Calaris, Nora, and Sulcis. Carthaginian religion appears to have taught the weakness of human beings in the face of the overwhelming and capricious power of the gods.

The great majority of Carthaginian personal names, unlike those of Greece and Rome, were of religious significance--e.g., Hannibal, "Favoured by Baal," or Hamilcar, "Favoured by Melqart."

"The temple of Baal was a magnificent building supported by enormous columns, covered with gold, or formed of a glass-like substance which began to glitter and sparkle in a curious manner as the night came on. Around the temple walls were idols representing the Phoenician gods; prominent among them was the hideous statue of Moloch, with its downward-sloping hands and the fiery furnace at its feet. There also might be seen beautiful Greek statues, trophies of the Sicilian

Wars—especially the Diana which the Carthaginians had taken from Segesta, which was afterwards restored to that city by the Romans, which Verres placed in his celebrated gallery and Cicero in his celebrated speech. There also might be seen the famous brazen bull which an Athenian invented for the amusement of Phalaris. Human beings were put inside, a fire was lit underneath, and the throat was so contrived that the shrieks and groans of the victims made the bull bellow as if he was alive. The first experiment was made by King Phalaris upon the artist, and the last by the people upon King Phalaris." ( www.exclassics.org/martyrdom/martc18.htm )
hannibalbarca.webspace.virginmedia.com/carthage-religion.htm

This is partly what I'm on about, I have no idea what they get up to with Moloch at Bohemian Grove but there is no proof rather than Roman propaganda against the Carthaginians that child sacrifice took place, they want the Carthaginians to look like they are evil and or not well evolved, rather than what they really were which was superior, as a society.

In fact it's estimated that seven of every ten children would die before the age of two, and the Sanctuary at Tanit was just as likely child cemetery as a burial ground for sacrificed children.

This is how it works when one Empire replaces another, the old Empire is demonized by the new, the innovation of the old is often taken by the new and presented as their own.
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 14:52 #10

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PFZIPppIES has it a bit wrong about the Phoenicians, they were the Canaanites and were ''holocausted'' by Hebrews on ''God's '' orders.

Genocide is not one of the ''commandments'' God appears to support Genocide, yet God does not like Hebrews being slaves for too long.
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 15:11 #11

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Baal was the power worshipped by the Canaanites as God. He is the bull god and is represented by a bull. He is half man and half bull, the god of fertility (the Sun God). In Egypt he was known as the Son of the Nile or Ra. He possessed Akhnaton (i.e. he who is pleasing to Aton), the husband of Nefertiti (i.e. possessed by Ashtaroh). Nefertiti was the originator of the Rosicrucians and the Masons. Baal promotes false religion and religious prostitution (as well as shrine prostitutes). J. P. Timmons, Mysterious Secrets of the Dark Kingdom p. 114 (1991).

Moloc was a Canaanite deity associated with human sacrifices. Mainly, child sacrifices. A bronze statue with the head of an ox and body of a man was erected, and infants would be placed in it to burn. Moloch may have been the Baal-Hammon worshiped in the cities of Tyre and Carthage. His name means "the lord of the altar of incense." He was usually shown as an old man with ram's horns, holding a scythe. Moloch was also thought to be the Adrammelech of Jewish legend. An idol form of the sun-god worshipped by the inhabitants of Sepharvaim (2 Kings 17:31), and brought by their colonists into Samaria, Adrammelech was turned into one of the ten archdemons, who appeared in animal forms such as a peacock, mule, horse, or lion. www.biblebelievers.org.au/edomites.htm

I think it's much more likely that children were burned after their natural deaths in a ceremony.
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 21:41 #12

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Child Sacrifice: Children of Phoenician Punic Carthage Where Not Sacrificed to the Gods

Excavations in Zama, Tunis, reveal that the practice of sacrificing children by the Phoenicians is a myth. The myth was born in the Greco-Roman age with Diodoro Siculo. He made a claim that in 310 B.C. the Carthaginians remembered that they did not honor their god Chronos with the annual sacrifice of children of noble families. Because of that, in few days, they slaughtered two hundred children. Recent archaeological discoveries have disavowed this macabre religious tradition, demonstrating that among Phoenicians there is no trace of human sacrifices. This appears in an interview, in the new issue of the Italian review: "Archeologia Viva," with professor Piero Bartoloni, Head of the Department of Phoenician-Punic Archaeology at Universita' di Sassari, Italy, and a favorite student of famous archaeologist Sabatino Moscati. He undertook a major excavation campaign in Zama, Tunisia, that is linked to the fall of Carthage after the battle of Zama in 202 B.C. The battle ended the second Punic war. He declares that, "In ancient times, for every ten children that were born, seven died within the first year and out of the remained three, only one became an adult. Now I ask: is it reasonable that, with such a high level of infant mortality, these people killed their own children?” Ten necropolises are the resting places of children. Actually it has been discovered -- Bartoloni reveals -- that the greater part of approximately 6,000 children urns found in Carthage, contain bones of fetuses, therefore of still born babies. The little older children remain a problem. They most probably passed away before their initiation, a ceremony that corresponds to Catholic baptism. Flames in some way were involved, because the same initiation included the "passage of fire” of the child, accompanied by its godfather. They jumped on burning coals, as written in the Bible, the Book of the Kings.

Read more: Child Sacrifice: Children of Phoenician Punic Carthage Where Not Sacrificed to the Gods phoenicia.org/childsacrifice.html#ixzz3djOvyAp7
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 21:50 #13

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Carthage was the great maritime power of the age. The rich Carthaginian overseas trade was able to support huge fleets by the standard of the time. This allowed them to take a virtual monopoly on trade in the western Mediterranean. At that time the Carthaginians boasted that no man could wash his hands in the salt water without their permission.

The Romans, since the earliest times, had not been known as great seafarers. They had not a single decked vessel, and in order to transport their troops across the straits they were obliged to borrow triremes from the Italian-Greeks. During the war the Roman legions met with early successes on the landward parts of Sicily, but at the same time the superior Carthaginian fleets ravaged the coasts of both that island and the Italian peninsula. It soon became apparent that mastery of the seas was of paramount importance if Rome were to progress further.

The Roman Senate now ordered the construction of 120 warships: 100 quinqueremes and 20 triremes that were completed in two months. Polybius says the Romans used a beached Carthaginian ship as a model. The Romans trained the crews on rowing machines during the sixty day period it took to construct the fleet: 30,000 Italian rowers were trained: 300 to a ship (they were supplemented by 120 marines per ship).

In the spring of 260 BC, the Roman fleet had been completed and outfitted, and set off down the coast of Italy toward Sicily. However, they were still no match for the Carthaginians in seafaring skill and initially the Romans were not successful at sea.

Their solution was a new "secret weapon" the corvus, (‘raven’ or ‘crow’ in Latin) which may have been copied from the Athenians at Syracuse. The corvus was a 35 foot long spiked boarding bridge, mounted on a swivel so that it could be turned and dropped on an adjacent enemy vessel. A large spike at the end of the corvus bit into the other ship, locking the two craft together. Then the Roman marines, who were in a larger proportion to the crew than on Carthaginian ships, would storm across and engage the enemy, thus turning a sea battle into a 'land battle' where the deadly Roman infantry skills could be put to use.This effectively converted a sea battle into a land battle.
www.hannibalbarca.webspace.virginmedia.com/punic1-rome-navy.htm
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 22:07 #14

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Thus far in this thread I have presented evidence that The Romans used Carthaginian ship building design, Carthage had baths in homes many years before the Romans, they also had an alphabet many years before the Romans.

That the Romans have as much as they could destroyed all traces of Carthage society and spun a wicked tale about Carthaginians sacrificing children.
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The Carthage Empire 21 Jun 2015 22:36 #15

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Were Living Children Sacrificed to the Gods in Punic Carthage?


NO

The Tophet was the final resting place for the still-born and for children who died in early infancy.

according to M'hamed Hassine Fantar.....

Were it not for a few classical accounts, scholars would probably not attribute the burials in the Carthage Tophet to child sacrifice. Some of the more sensational stories, such as those related by the first-century B.C. historian Diodorus Siculus, have been picked up in modern times and passed off as the entire truth. In the 19th century, for instance, Gustave Flaubert described Punic child sacrifices in his novel Salammbô; he had no evidence at all, except for the classical sources.

What if, however, the classical sources are unreliable? Indeed, what if all the evidence regarding the burials - either from literary sources or archaeological excavations - is unreliable or inconclusive?

Here is Diodorus’s account of how the Carthaginians sacrificed their children: "There was in their city a bronze image of Cronus, extending its hands, palms up and sloping toward the ground, so that each of the children when placed thereon rolled down and fell into a sort of gaping pit filled with fire" (Library of History 20.6-7).

This is the stuff of myth, not history. Diodorus, who was from Sicily, was probably mixing up stories about Carthage with ancient Sicilian myths - specifically the myth of the great bronze bull, built for the Sicilian tyrant Phalaris, in which the king’s enemies were roasted alive.

Now, when we come to more credible sources, like the Roman historian Polybius (c. 200-118 B.C.), there is no mention of Carthaginian child sacrifice. Polybius, we know, was with the Roman general Scipio Aemilianus when he destroyed Punic Carthage in 146 B.C. Polybius had no love of Carthage; he fought against the city. His evidence would have been decisive. But he does not make the least allusion to child sacrifice at Carthage.

Nor does the Roman historian Livy (c. 64 B.C.-12 A.D.), a more reliable contemporary of Diodorus. Livy was relatively well informed about Carthage, yet he was not so affectionate toward the city as to cover up what would have been in his eyes the worst of infamies: the deliberate slaughter of children.

So it is not clear at all from the classical sources that the Carthaginians sacrificed their children to the gods. What about the biblical verses often taken as evidence of child sacrifice among the Canaanites - particularly the Phoenicians, who established Carthage? The word "Tophet" is only known from the Hebrew Bible; it occurs several times in Jeremiah, once in Isaiah and once in Kings, always in the same context: "He [the late-seventh-century B.C. Judahite king Josiah] defiled Tophet, which is in the valley of Ben-hinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Moloch" (2 Kings 23:10).* So strong a connection has been presumed between such biblical passages and the Punic sanctuaries that these sacred grounds in Carthage and elsewhere are now called Tophets. The fact is, however, that the biblical passages do not mention sacrifice. They only refer to passing children through fire.

Neither the classical sources nor the biblical passages provide conclusive evidence concerning the events that took place in the Carthage Tophet. What about the physical facts?

The Tophet was a sacred space where urns containing the incinerated bones of children were buried. These remains, moreover, were no doubt buried ritually, in accord with Punic religious or cultic laws. Marking some urns are stelae bearing Phoenician inscriptions, along with symbols (like the triangular symbol of the goddess Tanit) and figural images. The incinerated remains are those of very young children, even fetuses; in certain urns, the bones of animals have been discovered. In some cases the urns contain the remains of children and animals mixed together. How do we account for these facts?

Some historians, such as the French scholar Hélène Benichou-Safar, have proposed that the Carthage Tophet was simply a children’s cemetery in which incineration was the method of burial. This interpretation, however, confronts a sizable obstacle: Many of the thousands of inscriptions engraved on the burial stelae are votive. The inscriptions make offerings and vows to the gods, and they plead for the gods’ blessing. Not one of these inscriptions, however, mentions death.

The Carthage Tophet, like other Tophets in Sicily and Sardinia, was not a necropolis. It was a sanctuary of the Punic god Ba’al Hammon.

The texts of the inscriptions in the Carthage Tophet suggest that the sanctuary was open to everyone, regardless of nationality or social status. We know that Greek-speaking people made use of the sanctuary, for instance, since some inscriptions have the names of the gods transcribed in Greek characters. Foreigners who visited the Tophet clearly did not offer Ba’al Hammon their offspring. Nor is it likely that visitors from other Punic settlements visited the Carthage Tophet to bury or sacrifice their children. One inscription, for example, mentions a woman named "Arishat daughter of Ozmik." The inscription tells us that Arishat was a "Baalat Eryx," or noble woman of Eryx, a Punic community in Sicily. It seems reasonable to assume that Arishat, while visiting the great city of Carthage, simply felt the need to pay homage to the Punic gods - or to utter a vow or make a request.

The Carthage Tophet was a sacred sanctuary where people came to make vows and address requests to Ba’al Hammon and his consort Tanit, according to the formula do ut des ("I give in order that you give"). Each vow was accompanied by an offering.

Some of the stelae suggest that animals were sacrificed and then offered to the gods. For example, some stelae bear engraved depictions of altars and the heads of the animal victims.

The presence of the incinerated bones of very young children, infants and even fetuses is puzzling. If the Tophet was not a cemetery (as the presence of animal bones suggests), why do we find infants and fetuses buried in a sanctuary?

It is very common, all over the world, to find that children who die young, and especially fetuses, are accorded special status. Many cultures believe that these are simply not ordinary deaths. The Italian archaeologist Sabatino Moscati has pointed out that in certain Greek necropolises children were incinerated and their tombs were located in a separate sector, quite distinct from the burial place used for adults. This is also the case in some Islamic necropolises, where sections are reserved exclusively for the tombs of infants. Even today, Japanese children who die young, called Gizu, are placed in special areas of a temple, and they are represented by carved figurines that suggest their holy status.

Similarly, Punic children who died young possessed a special status. They were accordingly incinerated and buried inside an enclosure reserved for the cult of lord Ba’al Hammon and lady Tanit. These children were not "dead" in the usual sense of the word; rather, they were retroceded. For mysterious reasons, Ba’al Hammon decided to recall them to himself. Submitting to divine will, the parents returned the child, giving it back to the god according to a ritual that involved, among other things, incineration and burial. In return, the parents hoped that Ba’al Hammon and Tanit would provide a replacement for the retroceded child - and this request was inscribed on a funeral stela.

Thus the Tophet burials were not true offerings of children to the gods. Rather, they were restitutions of children or fetuses taken prematurely, by natural death.

Carthaginians did not sacrifice their children to Ba’al Hammon in the Tophet. This open-air site, accessible to all who cared to visit the place, was a sacred sanctuary presided over by Ba’al Hammon and his consort Tanit. The human remains found in the urns buried in the Tophet were of children recalled to the presence of the gods; that is why they were buried in the sanctuary. To this sanctuary came grieving parents, who gave their children back to Ba’al Hammon and Tanit. Sometimes the parents would offer animal sacrifices to the gods to solicit their favor. Then they had funeral stelae carved and inscribed with vows, along with the poignant request that the divine couple grant them further offspring.
hannibalbarca.webspace.virginmedia.com/Carthage-child-sacrifice.htm
phoenicia.org/childsacrifice.html
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The Carthage Empire -- Like Greece and Troy, Rome and Carthage, or Norman and Saxon, 22 Jun 2015 01:11 #16

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▼▼ |||||||| Carthage, Philistine |||||||| ▼▼

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Dagon and the Ark of the Covenant
A look into the history of the Philistine god Dagon and the Ark of the Covenant of Israel

A glimpse into the past:
Like Greece and Troy, Rome and Carthage, or Norman and Saxon, the clash between the tribes of the Israelites and that of the Philistines has been one that has captured the fascination of Biblical scholars, historians, archaeologists, and professors. Historically, this clash found itself playing out along a narrow strip of land set against the shores of the eastern Mediterranean Sea and into the heart of Eretz Yisrael in the days of the Judges (i.e. Samson), and later during the time of King Saul and King David.


TZ - Topic >>>>> Moloch, Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Melek,
Molock, Moloc, Melech, Milcom, Molcom.

https://truth-zone.net/forum/anthropology/65692-moloch


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