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TOPIC: The Historical Jesus

The Historical Jesus 15 Feb 2016 18:13 #1

  • Robert Baird
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We have a thread on many scholars saying Know Rome = Know Jesus which establishes Rome authored a propaganda program to cover it's ass in case Christianity grew useful. They also could wrap a whole new Empire up in a nice sounding rap which they would not have to share as much of the rewards, women, power and other things from whence eventually came great bounty. My books cover the point of what is real and good about the family of Jesus (Merovingians) but this thread will not quote my books or thoughts a great deal. This is the kind of thing we should address in this thread. The chart includes many authors I have quoted including Eisenmann and Hyam Maccoby.


"Historical Jesus Theories: Comparison Chart

Modern historians have differentiated between the "historical Jesus" (what can be known about Jesus from academic historical study) and the "Christ of faith" (what can be known about Jesus through faith and theology) and attempted to discover the nature and teachings of the historical Jesus.

The following chart provides a summary of the main “theories of the historical Jesus” and those who teach them (including those who believe the historical Jesus and the Christ of faith to be one and the same), listed in alphabetical order by author.

It is important to note that although the authors are listed equally in this chart, not all have equal credentials or expertise, and some are not academics at all."

It has been nice to have a positive role model named Jesus but it is even better to learn what he did and why his message is still relevant today. In order to do what he wanted we must know more than the liars have put into his mouth, I say. Some of the lies smell sweet and provide great fortunes for those who put those sweet-sounding verses into your heart and mind. But like most people who say they know Jesus, I say I have lived his life. However, I am not a Christian and obviously there was no such religion as Yeshua grew up and became a wise man like many in his family since Melchizedek, David and Sol - o - moon. I am going to stay on topic and not get into who this family was in the many millennia I know they were important. I am not even going to address the Halakah or other laws of his people - except to say Mishnah requires a teacher (Rabbi) to be married and not at all meek. Meek people will have to return to learn until they get it right, if you believe in ego re-incarnating for normal people, I do not. I am told the whole 'meek shall inherit the Earth' verse was improperly translated anyway. It was 'Mensch' and a 'mensch' is strong and loyal with the strength to give and to fight as the situation called for. Yeshua was a 'mensch' as the scholars mostly agree. He may not however, have been the bandit or zealot that Josephus wanted his Roman friends, who paid him well, to believe. Surely James the Righteous and likely older brother of Yeshua was part of the amalgam or myth we will consider. I like what many of these scholars say, including Marcus Borg.

"Marcus J. Borg
"A spirit person, subversive sage, social prophet, and movement founder who invited his followers and hearers into a transforming relationship with the same Spirit that he himself knew, and into a community whose social vision was shaped by the core value of compassion."

Jesus did not believe he was the Messiah, nor did he regard "the supernatural coming of the Kingdom of God as a world-ending event in his own generation."

Main work on the Historical Jesus:
Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time (1995) "

Stephen Davies gives us an insight to a more magical adept who people gave ever-increasing power to, probably you have gone fishing and heard about the BIG one. This g-d projection and production is truly the BIG, BIGGER and BIGGEST one of all time.

"A "spirit-possessed" healer who was possessed by the "Spirit of God," by which he performed his healings.

Jesus' followers came to think of him as divine by identifying him with the Spirit of God that had possessed him.

Main work on the Historical Jesus:
Jesus the Healer: Possession, Trance, and the Origins of Christianity (1995)"

Earl Doherty and most serious people know there is a whole lot of myth in the story, and yes, there are some wise things attributed to him. John 10:34 says "Ye are gods." and the Dag Hammadi Scrolls are closer to this kind of vision of the man or myth. They did not have two millennia of copywriters messing with them.

The Bart Ehrman fellow surely is preaching to the choir in his Bible belt homeland. Maybe someone can tell me how a prophet who only has a few years in his prophecy for mankind to live keeps being quoted after a period of two thousand years. Bart rhymes with another explosive force with not so sweet smells. I do know these pulpit-pounders can speak out of every orifice all at once, but this is a rue four part harmony, he may even need to get the handcup under the arm in the pits going.

"An apocalyptic prophet who expected the imminent end of the world.

The teachings of Jesus are an "interim ethic" intended to apply to the short period of under a generation between the time of Jesus and the end of the age. Elements of realized eschatology in some of the gospels are a softening of Jesus' original message.

Main work on the Historical Jesus:
Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (1999)"

Eisenmann fits the mold of Rome created a fiction and even describes Rome's motive as he notes their Jesus is a pacifist which would hopefully not incite riots and revolts.

"A nationalistic Jew of insurrectionist bent.

Jesus' teachings were continued by James the Just, but "Jamesian Christianity" was played down by the Gospels, which are pro-Gentile, pro-Roman fictions which deliberately portray Jesus as a pacifistic, spiritual Messiah. Jesus and Paul are also identified with figures in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Main work on the Historical Jesus:
James the Brother of Jesus (1998)"
Last Edit: 15 Feb 2016 18:36 by Robert Baird. Reason: add color
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The Historical Jesus 16 Feb 2016 01:17 #2

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Jefferson had many issues but he is still one of the best people mankind has raised above the average illiterate and un-questioning hoi polloi.

I draw your attention to his words "blood thirsty".

Jefferson - “If we could believe that he [Jesus] really countenanced the follies, the falsehoods, and the charlatanism which his biographers [Gospels] father on him, and admit the misconstructions, interpolations, and theorizations of the fathers of the early, and the fanatics of the latter ages, the conclusion would be irresistible by every sound mind that he was an impostor... We find in the writings of his biographers matter of two distinct descriptions. First, a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstitions, fanaticisms and fabrications... That sect [Jews] had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust... Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion: and a step to right or left might place him within the gripe of the priests of the superstition, a blood thirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle him in the web of the law... That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore.

[Letter to William Short, 4 August, 1820]”

I suspect this Short is the son or grandson of a man who was sent from England to teach him Newton's alchemy for one year when Thomas was at William and Mary.

Ingersoll -

Not one of the orthodox ministers dare preach what he thinks if he knows a majority of his congregation think otherwise. He knows that every member of his church stands guard over his brain with a creed, like a club, in his hand. He knows that he is not expected to search after the truth, but that he is employed to defend the creed. Every pulpit is a pillory, in which stands a hired culprit, defending the justice of his own imprisonment.”

The Phoenicians are the people who we know as Philistines and others who colonized the Mediterranean. They are called the Sea People in some accounts or Danaus by Homer, and keltoi as well. The idea that there was a Cradle of Civilization in some Holy Land some time around the time Sumer had cuneiform tally system script is what still passes for history. It is all BS! When we go back to at least a half million years of civilization we will start to get rid of so many archaic ideas and take greater pride in what all races have contributed to what WE are.

-"The excavations of Thomas W. Jacobsen at the Franchithi Cave on the Bay of Argos... by 13,000 - 11,000 B.C. and that the cultivation of hybrid grains, the domestication of animals, and organized community tuna hunts had already begun." (Britannica) Yet there are those who say we couldn't travel the ocean when obsidian had to be brought from a distance, at this time. They like to intimate we couldn't travel the oceans for a reason when they say (NY Public Library's Chronicles) the earliest recorded sea travel was in 2600 BC to Lebanon.
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The Historical Jesus 16 Feb 2016 09:52 #3

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Here we have a description of ancient prophecy. Like many prophets it illustrates a gift of gab with no substance or merit. I will translate it and it's ghostly content.

"Ancient Prophecy

Ancient Prophecy – The Messages Communicated by Ancient Prophets

When anybody talks about prophecy these days, you may find a lot of controversy surrounding the topic with regards to whether the prophecy was true or false. This is because there have been a large number of people who are declaring themselves to be prophets and they are actually not true prophets. The same problem existed years ago, when there were many people prophesying but there was a gross uncertainty as to who was hearing from the Lord as opposed to who were associated with familiar spirits or spirits of divination. An ancient prophecy can be described as a message that was communicated to a prophet by the Supreme Being and he in turn would communicate this message to others. The message communicated by the prophet could contain any information that involved revelation, divine inspiration, judgment or simply an interpretation.

The concept of ancient prophecy is to be found in different parts of the religious world among some of the world’s largest religious groups namely, Christianity, Judaism and Islam, as well as many other smaller religious groups across the world. There are many definitions given to prophecy by these religious groups, for example, some groups believe that ancient prophecy was sent forth from a divine being through the medium of a normal man predicting future events relating to the end of the world. There are others; however who believe that ancient prophecy under its strict sense speaks to the foreknowledge of future events, though it may actually have a relationship to past events and to present hidden matters which are not usually understood by the natural beings. Nevertheless, history has revealed that the earliest form of the definition of ancient prophecy dealt in much detail with the issue of predicting future events.

In Judaism, you will find out that the earliest type of prophecy typically consisted of a warning by God against the lifestyle of the people, leaders and others who were living contrary to the principles and teaching of the Torah. However, some of those prophecies included the promises of God’s blessing upon the people because of their obedience to the Torah. In Christianity, there is also a strong emphasis on ancient prophecies in the Old Testament, of which many are said to have been fulfilled in the New Testament. One of the most potent Christian ancient prophecies was that by the prophet Isaiah about the coming of Jesus Christ as the Messiah to save the world from their sins. Another popular religion known as the Islamic faith, also believes in ancient prophecies. This is because many Muslims today still believe that Muhammad had experiences of a prophetic nature and phenomena that allowed him to interpret visions and dreams.

However, despite the fulfillment of many prophecies of the Holy Scriptures, you may realize that many people are still having doubts as to whether prophets actually exist. For example, atheists completely disagree with the fact that an individual can hear a message from the Supreme Being and communicate that message to others; atheists will disagree solely on the basis that the Supreme Being doesn’t exists to communicate messages to his people. Notwithstanding this, prophecies continue to fulfill before our eyes."


Ancient prophecy = Divine Intervention and the New Testament said the Old one was correct in it's prophesizing atheists cannot see the fulfillment of Holy Scripture.

Note: The same Scriptures in the three members of one cult are somehow made into proof of what they do not agree is in the Scriptures. The Jews do not think Jesus was the Messiah (if he existed). The Muslims think he existed but was just a prophet. The Romans who conquered them both (or all three) put words in his mouth. No doubt many claiming they are prophets also get one or two guesses out of a thousand correct.
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