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TOPIC: No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier

No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 20 Sep 2016 18:03 #1

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Over the years I have encountered and debated (if that's the word) Holocaust deniers online on many occasions. As with debating many types of fanatics, this was never an exercise in trying to convince the denier that they were wrong, since they are usually motivated by racial hatred rather than reason in the first place. These debates were more a way of showing those who might be inclined to think the neo-Nazi may have a point that they definitely don't.

As such, I've looked for a smack-down argument that works every time - something that immediately forces the neo-Nazi to respond with counter-arguments so absurd that it becomes instantly clear how ludicrous their position truly is.

With some deniers, this is more tricky than it might seem at first. They can be highly skilled at finding ways to dismiss the testimony of survivors - "Of course he's lying - he's a Jew wanting to perpetuate the myth" or "This minor detail is wrong so her whole testimony is tainted" or "How could he say millions died - did he personally witness millions of people being killed?" and so on. Arguments about the evidence that shows millions of European Jews disappeared from the face of the earth between 1933 and 1945 similarly get bogged down in debates over numbers, quibbles about sources of statistics and counter-arguments about millions of other civilians who died due to disease and the effects of war in the same period. These arguments can be made, but they are not as effective as a killer blow to neo-Nazi lies as another argument, namely:

No Nazi was ever a Holocaust denier.

This one, simple fact shows that everything the modern deniers try to claim is a post hoc contrivance. From 1945 onwards, thousands of Nazis were captured and hundreds tried for their part in the Holocaust and other crimes against humanity. They tried to pretend they were someone else, they tried to pretend they didn't know what was happening, they tried to pretend they didn't have as much to do with it as others, they tried to claim they were just following orders and they tried to justify it as "the kind of thing that happens in war." But what not one of them ever did was deny it happened.

Even men on trial for their lives, in the full knowledge they would be hanged if convicted, never stood up in the courtroom and shouted "This is all a lie! This is a fabrication! There were no gas chambers and no crematoria! I'm being framed!" On the contrary, they gave great detail as to precisely how they had helped build and helped run the mechanics of mass murder, some of them even seeming proud of how they had achieved something so complex and on such a vast scale.


Rudolf Höss

A classic example of the kind of Nazi who was not a Holocaust denier when, if the deniers are correct, he should have been was Rudolf Höss. SS-Obersturmbannführer Höss was commandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau from May 1940 to November 1943. According to Höss' own testimony and later memoirs, he was summoned to Berlin in June 1941 where he received "personal orders" from Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler to turn Auschwitz-Birkenau into a large scale extermination camp, modelled on the facility already operating at Treblinka. Höss detailed later how he visited Treblinka and then, by September 1941, had established similar gas chambers and crematoria in Auschwitz.

From then on, according to his detailed testimony, Höss oversaw the arrival of two to three trains a day of up to 2000 people, from whom the stronger were selected for one of the Auschwitz work camps and the rest were gassed and burned. He detailed how he made his gas chambers capable of murdering ten times as many people as the ones at Treblinka and detailed other "improvements" to the killing process:

"Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated." (Höss' affidavit for his Nuremberg trial )

As the Nazi regime crumbled, Höss and his family fled back to Germany and he was captured by British troops in May 1946, disguised as a farmer and claiming to be called Franz Lang. The British troops had been tipped off that he was the commandant of Auschwitz (several of them happened to be Jewish) and beat him until he admitted his real identity. From that point on he co-operated with the Allied authorities fully.

Höss' testimony throughout his trial was matter-of-fact and precise. Despite being on trial for his life, he was not agitated and seemed resigned to his fate - a psychologist described him as "apathetic" and investigators commented on how co-operative he was with them. In his testimony and in the memoir he was allowed to write while in prison, Höss was absolutely straightforward about what he had done:

I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70% or 80% of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries.(Höss' affidavit for his Nuremberg trial)


He later expressed regret for his crimes, but like most Nazi war criminals justified them by saying they were actions taken in war time, that the victims were seen as enemies of the state and that he was "only following orders." He was executed by being hanged on a gallows specially constructed next to the main crematorium at Auschwitz on April 16, 1947.

Anyone trying to claim that the Holocaust never happened, that the numbers of Jews killed have been exaggerated, that eye witnesses lied or can't have seen what they claim and that there were no gas chambers, no massive crematoria and no systematic mass murder of millions of men, women and children in death factories like Auschwitz need to explain the calm, detailed and co-operative testimony of Rudolf Höss and hundreds like him. They need to explain why he never objected that he was being framed, that there were no gas chambers and that these charges were all a lie. They need to explain why he detailed what he did with what was almost pride at the scale of his operation and did so in a way that is corroborated by thousands of other eye-witnesses (Nazis, prisoners and Soviet soldiers), as well as photographs, documents, and a mass of other evidence.

In other words, they need to explain why Rudolf Höss, of all people, wasn't a Holocaust denier and why NONE of the Nazis involved in these crimes EVER denied they happened. They need to explain why even the Nazis themselves disagree with Holocaust denial.

They can't, which exposes all their other quibbles, distortions, twisting of words, denials and fabrications as the evil and pathetic lies they are.

EDIT: After over 1000 upvotes and 40+ comments, there are a couple of further points I think are worth making.

(i) Several people, both in the comments and in other answers have leapt on the fact that Höss was beaten when he was first arrested and, to varying degrees, tried to argue this somehow invalidates his entire testimony. This is the standard way that Deniers brush aside all of Höss' evidence and a few of those using it here have the stench of Denier around their comments.

Others, however, simply don't seem to have thought their comments through. When Höss was captured his captors already knew who he was. His wife also confirmed it, but he continued to maintain he was a farmer called Lang (knowing that admitting to being Rudolf Höss was tantamount to a death sentence). This was when some of his captors beat him up until he admitted who he was.

But no-one then continued to beat him up for the next YEAR, during which he willingly signed affidavits about what he'd done, testified at length at Nuremberg and even wrote a detailed memoir detailing his life, making excuses for his actions and explaining what he did at Auschwitz in detail. On the contrary, he expressed surprise at how well he was treated.

So to pretend all of his months and months of detailed testimony were somehow precipitated by one beating when he was captured and that he went to the gallows sticking to a story that was, somehow, an elaborate lie is clearly absurd. It's made doubly absurd by the fact that everything he said was confirmed by vast documentation, by multiple eye-witnesses including other Nazis of varying rank, by photographs, and by archaeology. It takes a special kind of stupidity to argue this one beating means we can ignore all of Höss' evidence and he is just ONE of the hundreds of Nazis who detailed what happened. Again, not a single Nazi ever questioned, and thousands of them were, ever denied the Holocaust.

(ii). Several other answers note people they know who survived the Holocaust or who liberated concentration camps like Belsen and argue this is proof the Holocaust happened. The question is asking for a knockout punch against Deniers and, unfortunately, that evidence doesn't bother them much. They don't deny there were concentration camps, work camps, ghettos, mass deportations, mass shootings or even deaths into the hundreds of thousands from hunger and disease. They deny, however, that there was any order to exterminate millions, any organised program of systematic mass killing, any extermination camps, any gas chambers and any death toll in the multiple millions. So a grandmother with a camp tattoo or a great uncle who saw Buchenwald doesn't convince them.

This is why cutting through all their crap and confronting them with the fact that, without exception, every Nazi tried or questioned over the matter fully agreed it all happened leaves them with nowhere to go. All they can do is fall back on idiotic arguments like the one above about Höss' being roughed up, which simply exposes their position as the utter irrational stupidity it is.

www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-evidence-that-proves-beyond-reasonable-doubt-that-the-Holocaust-occurred
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Last Edit: 20 Sep 2016 18:04 by Frothy.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 20 Sep 2016 18:13 #2

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The holocaust is true because Rudolf Höss said so

Good to know :thumbup:
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 20 Sep 2016 18:25 #3

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excellent post, rat.
just a note, however, not all of those killed were jews.
there were several other groups of victims.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 20 Sep 2016 18:34 #4

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The Debunking thread to the quora article from the CODOH forum. Whether you think the CODOH revisionists are convincing is another matter.

forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8165

2 sides and all that.


Truth is anti-semitic
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 20 Sep 2016 18:55 #5

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As so often with controlled disinfo; they ask the right question and provide the wrong answer.

The question indeed is right; why didn't the Nazis, especially those who were facing "death" not en masse claim that they were tricked?

The right answer is of course;
they were in on the scam.
And following from that;
the "hangings" were fake(d).

Following the same twisted "logic" of the author of the article:

- Joker Tsarnaev never claimed "it's all a scam, I am being set-up, I didn't 'bomb' the Boston marathon" -> the MSM narrative needs to be true
- Anders Breivik never claimed "I am being made a patsy here, I never "shot" any children or "bombed" Oslo" -> the MSM narrative is true
- James Holmes never claimed "It wasn't me in that cinema in Aurora, I am being used here" -> the MSM narrative is right
- etc. etc. etc.

The right answer to the correct observation that those statements were "never made" (see the CODOH link by Voltaire for corrections on that claim) of course, is that those pawns were playing their parts of the scam. They cooperated, got faked and new identities and are only used in certain occasions (either for real or just with some pics) to keep the hoax alive.

The term "denial" is also a controlled disinfo term and is incorrect. It is only possible to deny things that happened. The Holocaust Story is demonstrably untrue, so to state the inconsistencies and come to the conclusion that story must be false, is not "denial", because that would mean that the story is true and one denies it is true.

The Rat shows again his sad side and true colours.

PS:
He was (((executed by being hanged on a gallows specially constructed))) next to the main crematorium at Auschwitz on April 16, 1947.
That is 4-7, 4-7; 11-11, the numerology is a give-away for some, but at least curious to others.

The many "suicides" and "heart attacks" may all be real, partly faked or all faked, or anything in between. As CODOH says; "it was convenient". Too convenient, as we have seen with so many hoaxes of today.
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"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
Last Edit: 20 Sep 2016 19:15 by Gaia.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 21 Sep 2016 06:18 #6

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Interesting responses, Gaia and Flare in derail mode, Pfiz types hasbara, Voltaite references CODOH, and so on....

Has anyone got a name and details of a WW2 Nazi who denied the holocaust at the time either during their trial or thereafter, links details etc?

The premise is; revisionists/Neo Nazis whatever term suits, always seem to deny the holocaust, but the National Socialists/real Nazis of WW2 didn't deny it, they don't share the revisionist/Neo Nazi narrative, thus they disagree.
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Last Edit: 21 Sep 2016 07:03 by Frothy.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 21 Sep 2016 08:42 #7

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Rat wrote:
Interesting responses, Gaia and Flare in derail mode, Pfiz types hasbara, Voltaite references CODOH, and so on....

Has anyone got a name and details of a WW2 Nazi who denied the holocaust at the time either during their trial or thereafter, links details etc?

The premise is; revisionists/Neo Nazis whatever term suits, always seem to deny the holocaust, but the National Socialists/real Nazis of WW2 didn't deny it, they don't share the revisionist/Neo Nazi narrative, thus they disagree.

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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 21 Sep 2016 08:43 #8

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Rat wrote:
Interesting responses, Gaia and Flare in derail mode, Pfiz types hasbara, Voltaite references CODOH, and so on....

Has anyone got a name and details of a WW2 Nazi who denied the holocaust at the time either during their trial or thereafter, links details etc?

The premise is; revisionists/Neo Nazis whatever term suits, always seem to deny the holocaust, but the National Socialists/real Nazis of WW2 didn't deny it, they don't share the revisionist/Neo Nazi narrative, thus they disagree.


Unfortunately a lot of Germans were executed at Nuremberg furthermore it is a crime to deny
the holocaust . But you know that already.
Why don't you:

Buy a chicken from Tesco and see how long it takes you to reduce it to nothing.
And report back stating how much accelerant was needed. How much wood\coal
etc was needed. And how long it took you to crush the bones to powder.

When you report back we can then multiply your time figure by 6 million to see how
long and how much fuel etc it would take to reduce 6 million chickens to nothing.

Then after this we will multiply that figure by an agreed figure to replace the unit weight
of 6 million chickens with a unit weight of 6 million humans.

We shall then have an agreed time of how long it should take to
reduce 6 million humans to nothing.

Plus an agreed figure of how much fuel\ accelerant etc

I can wait.........
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User(s) who Liked this post: PFIZIPFEI, Flare

No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 21 Sep 2016 12:52 #9

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So the answer so far to the question in my previous post is no, there are no WW2 Nazis that were holocaust deniers, not one. They just don't agree with holocaust denial.

Please post up any such cases, nothing else will do.
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Last Edit: 21 Sep 2016 12:54 by Frothy.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 21 Sep 2016 13:09 #10

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1st commandment of the secular religion:


Do not sin against THE HOLY SINGULAR PREROGATIVE OF INTERPRETATION


According to the "Hamburger Morgenpost" the magistrate tried to regain his composure several times during the trial.

"It is pointless to discuss with people who do not accept the facts," he said reportedly.

On the assertion of Haverbeck that there was no evidence for the Holocaust, the judge replied:

"I also do not have to prove that the earth is round."



Ursula Haverbeck Trial: truth-zone.net/forum/researchers-and-presenters/64912-ursula-haverbeck.html?start=20

Esau's Blessing: truth-zone.net/forum/government-and-authority/60509-un-what-is-this-who-created-it-how-when-and-for-what-reason.html?start=20#231654

FRG CRIMINAL CODE SECTION 130 REVISED & EXTENDED 1-1-16 NWO: truth-zone.net/forum/pfizipfei-forum-europe/66286-frg-criminal-code-section-130-revised-extended-1-1-16-nwo.html

.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 21 Sep 2016 13:11 by PFIZIPFEI.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 22 Sep 2016 08:22 #11

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Rat wrote:
So the answer so far to the question in my previous post is no, there are no WW2 Nazis that were holocaust deniers, not one. They just don't agree with holocaust denial.

Please post up any such cases, nothing else will do.

Governments lie. They also suppress truths and can bury them deep underground in sealed vaults.
Getting to the truth of matters is very hard indeed.
However....the good news is is that we can all attempt to burn\reduce a chicken to ashes.
So, have you conducted the experiment yet and if so what are your findings?

Also, you may want to ponder on or indeed answer this question:

"Why would the Germans deliberately kill their "cash cow" in war time?"
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 22 Sep 2016 14:28 #12

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Rat wrote:
Over the years I have encountered and debated (if that's the word) Holocaust deniers online on many occasions. As with debating many types of fanatics, this was never an exercise in trying to convince the denier that they were wrong, since they are usually motivated by racial hatred rather than reason in the first place. These debates were more a way of showing those who might be inclined to think the neo-Nazi may have a point that they definitely don't.

As such, I've looked for a smack-down argument that works every time - something that immediately forces the neo-Nazi to respond with counter-arguments so absurd that it becomes instantly clear how ludicrous their position truly is.

With some deniers, this is more tricky than it might seem at first. They can be highly skilled at finding ways to dismiss the testimony of survivors - "Of course he's lying - he's a Jew wanting to perpetuate the myth" or "This minor detail is wrong so her whole testimony is tainted" or "How could he say millions died - did he personally witness millions of people being killed?" and so on. Arguments about the evidence that shows millions of European Jews disappeared from the face of the earth between 1933 and 1945 similarly get bogged down in debates over numbers, quibbles about sources of statistics and counter-arguments about millions of other civilians who died due to disease and the effects of war in the same period. These arguments can be made, but they are not as effective as a killer blow to neo-Nazi lies as another argument, namely:

No Nazi was ever a Holocaust denier.

This one, simple fact shows that everything the modern deniers try to claim is a post hoc contrivance. From 1945 onwards, thousands of Nazis were captured and hundreds tried for their part in the Holocaust and other crimes against humanity. They tried to pretend they were someone else, they tried to pretend they didn't know what was happening, they tried to pretend they didn't have as much to do with it as others, they tried to claim they were just following orders and they tried to justify it as "the kind of thing that happens in war." But what not one of them ever did was deny it happened.

Even men on trial for their lives, in the full knowledge they would be hanged if convicted, never stood up in the courtroom and shouted "This is all a lie! This is a fabrication! There were no gas chambers and no crematoria! I'm being framed!" On the contrary, they gave great detail as to precisely how they had helped build and helped run the mechanics of mass murder, some of them even seeming proud of how they had achieved something so complex and on such a vast scale.


Rudolf Höss

A classic example of the kind of Nazi who was not a Holocaust denier when, if the deniers are correct, he should have been was Rudolf Höss. SS-Obersturmbannführer Höss was commandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau from May 1940 to November 1943. According to Höss' own testimony and later memoirs, he was summoned to Berlin in June 1941 where he received "personal orders" from Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler to turn Auschwitz-Birkenau into a large scale extermination camp, modelled on the facility already operating at Treblinka. Höss detailed later how he visited Treblinka and then, by September 1941, had established similar gas chambers and crematoria in Auschwitz.

From then on, according to his detailed testimony, Höss oversaw the arrival of two to three trains a day of up to 2000 people, from whom the stronger were selected for one of the Auschwitz work camps and the rest were gassed and burned. He detailed how he made his gas chambers capable of murdering ten times as many people as the ones at Treblinka and detailed other "improvements" to the killing process:

"Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated." (Höss' affidavit for his Nuremberg trial )

As the Nazi regime crumbled, Höss and his family fled back to Germany and he was captured by British troops in May 1946, disguised as a farmer and claiming to be called Franz Lang. The British troops had been tipped off that he was the commandant of Auschwitz (several of them happened to be Jewish) and beat him until he admitted his real identity. From that point on he co-operated with the Allied authorities fully.

Höss' testimony throughout his trial was matter-of-fact and precise. Despite being on trial for his life, he was not agitated and seemed resigned to his fate - a psychologist described him as "apathetic" and investigators commented on how co-operative he was with them. In his testimony and in the memoir he was allowed to write while in prison, Höss was absolutely straightforward about what he had done:

I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70% or 80% of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries.(Höss' affidavit for his Nuremberg trial)


He later expressed regret for his crimes, but like most Nazi war criminals justified them by saying they were actions taken in war time, that the victims were seen as enemies of the state and that he was "only following orders." He was executed by being hanged on a gallows specially constructed next to the main crematorium at Auschwitz on April 16, 1947.

Anyone trying to claim that the Holocaust never happened, that the numbers of Jews killed have been exaggerated, that eye witnesses lied or can't have seen what they claim and that there were no gas chambers, no massive crematoria and no systematic mass murder of millions of men, women and children in death factories like Auschwitz need to explain the calm, detailed and co-operative testimony of Rudolf Höss and hundreds like him. They need to explain why he never objected that he was being framed, that there were no gas chambers and that these charges were all a lie. They need to explain why he detailed what he did with what was almost pride at the scale of his operation and did so in a way that is corroborated by thousands of other eye-witnesses (Nazis, prisoners and Soviet soldiers), as well as photographs, documents, and a mass of other evidence.

In other words, they need to explain why Rudolf Höss, of all people, wasn't a Holocaust denier and why NONE of the Nazis involved in these crimes EVER denied they happened. They need to explain why even the Nazis themselves disagree with Holocaust denial.

They can't, which exposes all their other quibbles, distortions, twisting of words, denials and fabrications as the evil and pathetic lies they are.

EDIT: After over 1000 upvotes and 40+ comments, there are a couple of further points I think are worth making.

(i) Several people, both in the comments and in other answers have leapt on the fact that Höss was beaten when he was first arrested and, to varying degrees, tried to argue this somehow invalidates his entire testimony. This is the standard way that Deniers brush aside all of Höss' evidence and a few of those using it here have the stench of Denier around their comments.

Others, however, simply don't seem to have thought their comments through. When Höss was captured his captors already knew who he was. His wife also confirmed it, but he continued to maintain he was a farmer called Lang (knowing that admitting to being Rudolf Höss was tantamount to a death sentence). This was when some of his captors beat him up until he admitted who he was.

But no-one then continued to beat him up for the next YEAR, during which he willingly signed affidavits about what he'd done, testified at length at Nuremberg and even wrote a detailed memoir detailing his life, making excuses for his actions and explaining what he did at Auschwitz in detail. On the contrary, he expressed surprise at how well he was treated.

So to pretend all of his months and months of detailed testimony were somehow precipitated by one beating when he was captured and that he went to the gallows sticking to a story that was, somehow, an elaborate lie is clearly absurd. It's made doubly absurd by the fact that everything he said was confirmed by vast documentation, by multiple eye-witnesses including other Nazis of varying rank, by photographs, and by archaeology. It takes a special kind of stupidity to argue this one beating means we can ignore all of Höss' evidence and he is just ONE of the hundreds of Nazis who detailed what happened. Again, not a single Nazi ever questioned, and thousands of them were, ever denied the Holocaust.

(ii). Several other answers note people they know who survived the Holocaust or who liberated concentration camps like Belsen and argue this is proof the Holocaust happened. The question is asking for a knockout punch against Deniers and, unfortunately, that evidence doesn't bother them much. They don't deny there were concentration camps, work camps, ghettos, mass deportations, mass shootings or even deaths into the hundreds of thousands from hunger and disease. They deny, however, that there was any order to exterminate millions, any organised program of systematic mass killing, any extermination camps, any gas chambers and any death toll in the multiple millions. So a grandmother with a camp tattoo or a great uncle who saw Buchenwald doesn't convince them.

This is why cutting through all their crap and confronting them with the fact that, without exception, every Nazi tried or questioned over the matter fully agreed it all happened leaves them with nowhere to go. All they can do is fall back on idiotic arguments like the one above about Höss' being roughed up, which simply exposes their position as the utter irrational stupidity it is.

www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-evidence-that-proves-beyond-reasonable-doubt-that-the-Holocaust-occurred

It's a bit like saying..
" No Egyptian Pharaoh ever denied the existence of the internet."
The term 'Holocaust' is a post-war invention so those Nazis back in the day couldn't have denied or accepted it.
Cos the term - in its contemporary context - didn't exist back then.
Hope that helps.
Last Edit: 22 Sep 2016 14:29 by GMP.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 22 Sep 2016 19:28 #13

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Whilst off topic I urge those who are balanced in their opinion to research
on the "Sergeants affair" Mandate Palestine July 1947. (Clifford Martin, Mervyn Paice )

You would have thought "holocaust survivors" would be sick of fighting......
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 23 Sep 2016 18:57 #14

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GMP wrote:
Rat wrote:
Over the years I have encountered and debated (if that's the word) Holocaust deniers online on many occasions. As with debating many types of fanatics, this was never an exercise in trying to convince the denier that they were wrong, since they are usually motivated by racial hatred rather than reason in the first place. These debates were more a way of showing those who might be inclined to think the neo-Nazi may have a point that they definitely don't.

As such, I've looked for a smack-down argument that works every time - something that immediately forces the neo-Nazi to respond with counter-arguments so absurd that it becomes instantly clear how ludicrous their position truly is.

With some deniers, this is more tricky than it might seem at first. They can be highly skilled at finding ways to dismiss the testimony of survivors - "Of course he's lying - he's a Jew wanting to perpetuate the myth" or "This minor detail is wrong so her whole testimony is tainted" or "How could he say millions died - did he personally witness millions of people being killed?" and so on. Arguments about the evidence that shows millions of European Jews disappeared from the face of the earth between 1933 and 1945 similarly get bogged down in debates over numbers, quibbles about sources of statistics and counter-arguments about millions of other civilians who died due to disease and the effects of war in the same period. These arguments can be made, but they are not as effective as a killer blow to neo-Nazi lies as another argument, namely:

No Nazi was ever a Holocaust denier.

This one, simple fact shows that everything the modern deniers try to claim is a post hoc contrivance. From 1945 onwards, thousands of Nazis were captured and hundreds tried for their part in the Holocaust and other crimes against humanity. They tried to pretend they were someone else, they tried to pretend they didn't know what was happening, they tried to pretend they didn't have as much to do with it as others, they tried to claim they were just following orders and they tried to justify it as "the kind of thing that happens in war." But what not one of them ever did was deny it happened.

Even men on trial for their lives, in the full knowledge they would be hanged if convicted, never stood up in the courtroom and shouted "This is all a lie! This is a fabrication! There were no gas chambers and no crematoria! I'm being framed!" On the contrary, they gave great detail as to precisely how they had helped build and helped run the mechanics of mass murder, some of them even seeming proud of how they had achieved something so complex and on such a vast scale.


Rudolf Höss

A classic example of the kind of Nazi who was not a Holocaust denier when, if the deniers are correct, he should have been was Rudolf Höss. SS-Obersturmbannführer Höss was commandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau from May 1940 to November 1943. According to Höss' own testimony and later memoirs, he was summoned to Berlin in June 1941 where he received "personal orders" from Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler to turn Auschwitz-Birkenau into a large scale extermination camp, modelled on the facility already operating at Treblinka. Höss detailed later how he visited Treblinka and then, by September 1941, had established similar gas chambers and crematoria in Auschwitz.

From then on, according to his detailed testimony, Höss oversaw the arrival of two to three trains a day of up to 2000 people, from whom the stronger were selected for one of the Auschwitz work camps and the rest were gassed and burned. He detailed how he made his gas chambers capable of murdering ten times as many people as the ones at Treblinka and detailed other "improvements" to the killing process:

"Still another improvement we made over Treblinka was that at Treblinka the victims almost always knew that they were to be exterminated and at Auschwitz we endeavored to fool the victims into thinking that they were to go through a delousing process. Of course, frequently they realized our true intentions and we sometimes had riots and difficulties due to that fact. Very frequently women would hide their children under the clothes but of course when we found them we would send the children in to be exterminated." (Höss' affidavit for his Nuremberg trial )

As the Nazi regime crumbled, Höss and his family fled back to Germany and he was captured by British troops in May 1946, disguised as a farmer and claiming to be called Franz Lang. The British troops had been tipped off that he was the commandant of Auschwitz (several of them happened to be Jewish) and beat him until he admitted his real identity. From that point on he co-operated with the Allied authorities fully.

Höss' testimony throughout his trial was matter-of-fact and precise. Despite being on trial for his life, he was not agitated and seemed resigned to his fate - a psychologist described him as "apathetic" and investigators commented on how co-operative he was with them. In his testimony and in the memoir he was allowed to write while in prison, Höss was absolutely straightforward about what he had done:

I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This figure represents about 70% or 80% of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries.(Höss' affidavit for his Nuremberg trial)


He later expressed regret for his crimes, but like most Nazi war criminals justified them by saying they were actions taken in war time, that the victims were seen as enemies of the state and that he was "only following orders." He was executed by being hanged on a gallows specially constructed next to the main crematorium at Auschwitz on April 16, 1947.

Anyone trying to claim that the Holocaust never happened, that the numbers of Jews killed have been exaggerated, that eye witnesses lied or can't have seen what they claim and that there were no gas chambers, no massive crematoria and no systematic mass murder of millions of men, women and children in death factories like Auschwitz need to explain the calm, detailed and co-operative testimony of Rudolf Höss and hundreds like him. They need to explain why he never objected that he was being framed, that there were no gas chambers and that these charges were all a lie. They need to explain why he detailed what he did with what was almost pride at the scale of his operation and did so in a way that is corroborated by thousands of other eye-witnesses (Nazis, prisoners and Soviet soldiers), as well as photographs, documents, and a mass of other evidence.

In other words, they need to explain why Rudolf Höss, of all people, wasn't a Holocaust denier and why NONE of the Nazis involved in these crimes EVER denied they happened. They need to explain why even the Nazis themselves disagree with Holocaust denial.

They can't, which exposes all their other quibbles, distortions, twisting of words, denials and fabrications as the evil and pathetic lies they are.

EDIT: After over 1000 upvotes and 40+ comments, there are a couple of further points I think are worth making.

(i) Several people, both in the comments and in other answers have leapt on the fact that Höss was beaten when he was first arrested and, to varying degrees, tried to argue this somehow invalidates his entire testimony. This is the standard way that Deniers brush aside all of Höss' evidence and a few of those using it here have the stench of Denier around their comments.

Others, however, simply don't seem to have thought their comments through. When Höss was captured his captors already knew who he was. His wife also confirmed it, but he continued to maintain he was a farmer called Lang (knowing that admitting to being Rudolf Höss was tantamount to a death sentence). This was when some of his captors beat him up until he admitted who he was.

But no-one then continued to beat him up for the next YEAR, during which he willingly signed affidavits about what he'd done, testified at length at Nuremberg and even wrote a detailed memoir detailing his life, making excuses for his actions and explaining what he did at Auschwitz in detail. On the contrary, he expressed surprise at how well he was treated.

So to pretend all of his months and months of detailed testimony were somehow precipitated by one beating when he was captured and that he went to the gallows sticking to a story that was, somehow, an elaborate lie is clearly absurd. It's made doubly absurd by the fact that everything he said was confirmed by vast documentation, by multiple eye-witnesses including other Nazis of varying rank, by photographs, and by archaeology. It takes a special kind of stupidity to argue this one beating means we can ignore all of Höss' evidence and he is just ONE of the hundreds of Nazis who detailed what happened. Again, not a single Nazi ever questioned, and thousands of them were, ever denied the Holocaust.

(ii). Several other answers note people they know who survived the Holocaust or who liberated concentration camps like Belsen and argue this is proof the Holocaust happened. The question is asking for a knockout punch against Deniers and, unfortunately, that evidence doesn't bother them much. They don't deny there were concentration camps, work camps, ghettos, mass deportations, mass shootings or even deaths into the hundreds of thousands from hunger and disease. They deny, however, that there was any order to exterminate millions, any organised program of systematic mass killing, any extermination camps, any gas chambers and any death toll in the multiple millions. So a grandmother with a camp tattoo or a great uncle who saw Buchenwald doesn't convince them.

This is why cutting through all their crap and confronting them with the fact that, without exception, every Nazi tried or questioned over the matter fully agreed it all happened leaves them with nowhere to go. All they can do is fall back on idiotic arguments like the one above about Höss' being roughed up, which simply exposes their position as the utter irrational stupidity it is.

www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-evidence-that-proves-beyond-reasonable-doubt-that-the-Holocaust-occurred

It's a bit like saying..
" No Egyptian Pharaoh ever denied the existence of the internet."
The term 'Holocaust' is a post-war invention so those Nazis back in the day couldn't have denied or accepted it.
Cos the term - in its contemporary context - didn't exist back then.
Hope that helps.

They were asked/accused during their trials none of them denied the mass death gassings in the camps. None since to this day have denied the holocaust. At least you tried to create an answer but your Pharaoh/internet analogy has no relevance to nil Nazis who were in WW2 denying the holocaust either during trials, questioning after, WW2 or ever since. It's only neo Nazis/revisionists who were not in WW2 that deny.the holocaust/extetmination gassings.

So the real WW2 Nazis who served under Hitler that denied the holocaust/mass gassings in said camps number at zero. Please give any names and details otherwise?
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 23 Sep 2016 19:01 #15

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Rat wrote:
They were asked/accused during their trials none of them denied the mass death gassings in the camps. None since to this day have denied the holocaust.
...
So the real WW2 Nazis who served under Hitler that denief the holocaust/mass gassings in said camps number at zero. Please give any names land details otherwise?

Bullshit. See Voltaires link where multiple Nazis have denied the existence of gas chambers, a mass extermination of jews and others and other accusations.

Your "zero" is demonstrably false, but you keep promoting it as the shill you are.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 23 Sep 2016 19:11 #16

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I'm going with what's written in this thread so far, I'm not following links about to other forums, if you have evidence post it up otherwise so far on this thread we have nil Nazis denying the holocaust regarding actual WW2 personal.

Names and details to be posted and then they can be somewhat researched, confirmed or debunked, let's have the names and details posted on this thread of WW2 Nazi holocaust deniers or the count here is zero.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 23 Sep 2016 19:19 #17

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Sounds like you are ÜBER KVETCHING, Rat.



:)


I suppose she doesn't mind in the least, that Rat on a tiny forum calls her "Nazi" and "holocaust denier". ;)


ursula-haverbeck.info/

truth-zone.net/forum/researchers-and-presenters/64912-ursula-haverbeck.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck

metapedia is down atm


.
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because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
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where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 23 Sep 2016 19:40 #18

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forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8165
"I don’t have anything to hide. Terrible things happened at Auschwitz, and I did my best to help. One could not do everything. There were terrible disasters there. I could only save so many. I never killed anyone or hurt anyone. I can prove I am innocent of what they could say against me. I am building the facts for my defense. I want to turn myself in and be cleared at a trial."

- Dr. Mengele
Hermann Göring
about the decree of 31st day of July 1941 to Himmler and Heydrich and the "final solution"
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Then, it was you, was it not, who signed, on the 31st day of July 1941, a decree asking Himmler, and the Chief of Security Police and the SS GruppenFuehrer Heydrich to make the plans for the complete solution of the Jewish question?

Goering: No, that is not correct. I know that decree very well.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I ask to have you shown Document 710, Exhibit Number USA-509.

THE PRESIDENT: Is that 710-PS?

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: 710-PS, Your Honor.

[Turning to the witness.] That document is signed by you, is it not?

Goering: That is correct.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: And it is addressed to the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service, and to SS GruppenFuehrer Heydrich, isn't it?

Goering: That is also correct.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: I am not certain whether the entire thing has been read into the record, but I think it should be; and, that we may have no difficulty about the translation of this, you correct me if I am wrong:

"Completing the task that was assigned to you on the 24th of January 1939..."

Goering: Here is a mistake already. It says: "Complementing" not "completing" the task which has been assigned to you.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Very well, I will accept that.

". . . which dealt with arriving at a thorough furtherance of emigration and evacuation, a solution of the Jewish problem, as advantageously as possible, I hereby charge you with making all necessary preparations in regard to organizational and financial matters for bringing about a complete solution of the Jewish question in the German sphere of influence in Europe."

Am I correct so far?

Goering: No, that is in no way correctly translated.

MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: Give us your translation of it?

Goering: May I read it as it is written here?

"Complementing the task which was conferred upon you already on 24 January 1939, to solve the Jewish problem by means of emigration and evacuation in the best possible way according to present conditions, I charge you herewith to make all necessary preparations as regards organizational, factual, and material matters ......"

Now comes the decisive word which has been mistranslated: "for a total solution," not "for a final solution."

"... for a total solution of the Jewish question within the area of German influence in Europe. Should these come within the competence of other governmental departments, then such departments are to co-operate.

"I charge you further to submit to me as soon as possible a general plan showing the organizational and material measures for reaching the desired total solution of the Jewish question.... Complementing the task assigned to you on 24 January 1939 ......"
Birkenau Commandant Josef Kramer was ultimately hanged:
I have heard of the allegations of former prisoners in Auschwitz referring to a gas chamber there, the mass executions and whippings, the cruelty of the guards employed and that all this took place either in my presence or with my knowledge. All I can say to all this is that it is untrue from beginning to end.


Julius Streicher wasn't even a member of the military nor did he take part in planning the 'Holocaust'. He was hanged for statements such as these:
To this day I do not believe that 5 million were killed. I consider it technically impossible that that could have happened. I do not believe it. I have not received proof of that up until now.


SS Ernst Kaltenbrunner was also hanged for his "denial":
Show me one of those men or any of those orders. It is utterly impossible.


...as was SS Hans Aumeier:
I know nothing about any gas chambers and no detainee was gassed during my tour of duty.


Alfred Rosenberg was hung, as well:
But that there was an order for the individual annihilation of the entire Jewry, I could not assume... it was not interpreted as an individual extermination, an individual annihilation of millions of Jews.


It gets even deeper:

- Auschwitz Commandant Richard Baer was the only defendant who did not appear at the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial in 1963. Though in perfect health, he died "in a highly mysterious way" while in prison before the trial had begun. This is of particular interest because a Paris newspaper had recorded his insistence that "during the whole time in which he governed Auschwitz, he never saw any gas chambers nor believed that such things existed," and from this statement nothing would dissuade him.

- Deputy Commandant Gustav Franz Wagner lived in Brazil after the war. After Simon Wiesenthal initiated a hunt for a man falsely identified as him, the real Wagner voluntarily handed himself over to the Brazil special police. Wagner reportedly told police “I never saw any gas chamber at Sobibor”. A year later Wagner allegedly committed suicide by stabbing himself to death in the bathroom of his rural home.

- There were also mysterious pre-trial "suicides" of Joseph Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Adolf Hitler, Odilo Globocnik and several others.

As over-cited as he may be, Rudolf Hoess probably deserved better than what he got:
Psychologically I was almost cut in pieces. They wanted to know all about everything, and this was also done by Jews. They left me in no doubt whatever as to the fate that was in store for me.


Whatever they did to him, it worked. He blamed himself for crimes he wasn't even aware of:
Since I was Commandant of the extermination camp Auschwitz I was totally responsible for everything that happened there, whether I knew about it or not. Most of the terrible and horrible things that took place there I learned only during this investigation and during the trial itself. I cannot describe how I was deceived, how my directives were twisted, and all the things they had carried out supposedly under my orders.


Oswald Pohl dealt with similar problems:
As result of the brutal physical mistreatment in Nenndorf and my treatment in Nuremberg, I was emotionally a completely broken man. I was 54 years old. For 33 years I had served by country without dishonor, and I was unconscious of any crime.


Pohl had to say about the general character of postwar trials against German leaders:
It was obvious during the Dachau trials, and it also came out unmistakably and only poorly disguised during the Nuremberg trials, that the prosecution authorities, among whom Jews predominated, were driven by blind hatred and obvious lust for revenge. Their goal was not the search for truth but rather the annihilation of as many adversaries as possible.


Both Pohl and Hoess were executed by hanging.

Once subsequently-tried German officials "got the picture", the only dependable option became acknowledging 'extermination' while denying involvement. This became the standard for SS confessions.
Prominent Nazi Holocaust Deniers: Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, Ribbentrop, Goering, Kaltenbrunner, Hans Lammers and S.S. Major-General Heinz Fanslau.

And a curious bonus (he wasn't properly briefed with the NaZionist script, it seems):
Gunter Herman Frich (one of those "Nazis") admitting to gassing Jews at Buchenwald, even though no one claims there was a gas chamber at Buchenwald

The rest you can look up for yourself, you're not handicapped.
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 24 Sep 2016 04:40 #19

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Sounds like you are ÜBER KVETCHING, Rat.



:)


I suppose she doesn't mind in the least, that Rat on a tiny forum calls her "Nazi" and "holocaust denier". ;)


ursula-haverbeck.info/

truth-zone.net/forum/researchers-and-presenters/64912-ursula-haverbeck.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck

metapedia is down atm


.

I have not seen anything that Ursula Haverbeck was in the German military or police during WW2, so would not have been on trial or involved in said holocaust if it happened, what I'm asking about here is that the alleged holocaust perpetrators have not denied the holocaust, i'm not convinced that Haverbeck would be included in that group, was she included or suspected of being included in said ''death camps''?
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No Nazi was ever a holocaust denier 24 Sep 2016 05:09 #20

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Thank you for posting up those names and details Gaia, I don't perceive Goering denying the holocaust per say, but anyway what is muh more important of all the people that you have identified from the CODOH forum imo is Josef Kramer, Birkenau Commandant.
Excerpts from The Belsen Trial

Part 3 of 5:
Testimony of Josef Kramer

At this point begins the Belsen conditions as Kramer saw them.

Josef Kramer is questioned by his defense council, Major Winwood (pp. 157-158):

When you arrived at Auschwitz who was the Kommandant of the whole camp?
-- Obersturmbannführer Hoess. It was a very large camp and was subdivided into Camp Nos. 1, 2 and 3. I was Kommandant of Camp No. 2, Birkenau.
Will you explain to the Court how it is that, in the first statement you made, you said the allegations referring to gas chambers, mass executions, whipping and cruelty were untrue?
-- There are two reasons for that. The first is that in the first statement I was told that the prisoners alleged that these gas chambers were under my command, and the second and main reason was that Pohl, who spoke to me, took my word of honour that I should remain silent and should not tell anybody at all about the existence of the gas chambers. When I made my first statement I felt still bound by this word of honour which I had given. When I made the second statement in prison, in Celle, these persons to whom I felt bound in honour -- Adolf Hitler and Reichsführer Himmler -- were no loner alive and I thought then that I was no longer bound.
Did Kommandant Hoess say anything to you about the gas chambers?
-- I received a written order from him that I had nothing to do with either the gas chambers or the incoming transports. The Political Department which was in every camp had a card index system of prisoners and was responsible for personal documents and for any sort of transports or incoming prisoners. At Auschwitz the Political Department was also responsible for all the selections from incoming transports for the gas chamber. In the crematorium the S.S. and prisoners -- Sonderkommando -- were under the command of the Kommandant of Auschwitz, Hoess. As the place where the transports generally arrived was in the middle of my own camp I was sometimes present at their arrival. The people who took part in supervising and who were responsible for the security were partly from Auschwitz No. 1, and partly from my own camp at Birkenau, but the selection of these people who had to supervise was done by the Kommandant of Auschwitz No. 1. The actual selections of the internees were made only by doctors. Those who were selected for the gas chambers went to the different crematoria, those who were found to be fit for work came into two different parts of my camp, because the idea was that in a few days they were to be re-transferred to different parts of German for work.
[...]

What did you think of the whole gas chamber business?
-- I asked myself, "Is it really right about these persons who go to the gas chambers, and whether that person who signed for the first time these orders will be able to answer for it?" I did not know what the purpose of the gas chamber was.
Now on to his cross-examination by Major Backhouse (p. 174):

I suggest to you that you went on lying about the gas chamber until you were shown a photograph which had been taken of one at Natzweiler, and that was the first time you admitted the existence of such a thing?
-- It was not so, because between the two statements I was not asked any more.
[...]

What was the purpose of the Natzweiler camp?
--To let prisoners work in a quarry near by?
Were the prisoners not regularly supplied from that camp to Strasbourg for experiments?
--No.
Was there no gas chamber there before you arrived?
-- No.
Was it constructed under your instructions and did you quite deliberately gas 80 prisoners in that gas chamber?
--Yes, on the orders of Reichsführer Himmler.
[...]

Did you force these people into the gas chamber yourself?
-- Yes.
Did you actually put the gas in yourself and watch them inside as they died through a peephole you had made?
-- No.
[...]

Did you not describe that the women continued to breathe for about half a minute?
-- One could hear that. It was not necessary to observe.
Were you not chosen as Kommandant of Birkenau because you had proved yourself willing to do this sort of thing?
-- No, I do not think so, because I got a special order that I had nothing to do with either crematoria or transports.
When Kommandant Pohl demanded your word of honour not to talk about the gas chambers, why was it that you could not tell anybody if it was all legally proper and above board?
-- I do not know. Nothing could be said about concentration camps in the outside world.
[...]

Was the purpose of the gas chambers not a part of the determination of your Party to try and exterminate the Jewish race and all the intelligent people of Poland?
-- I do not know.
[...]

Kramer, under questioning about Belsen by the Prosection's Colonel Backhouse (p. 178):

Did you watch these people slowly starving and dying?
-- Yes. That is to say I did not look at it, but I saw from the daily reports how many people were dying every day.
Did you see these people gradually dying of starvation and thirst?
-- Yes, I mentioned these facts in my letter to Glücks.
And in spite of the fact that these people were starving and dying you ordered them out to Appell? [roll call]
-- Not the sick people.
Are you seriously suggesting that two doctors could certify the sick in that camp?
-- With these two doctors there were a certain number of doctors coming from the prisoners themselves. It is not my fault that I did not get any more S.S. Doctors.
Is it true that these people stood for hours on Appell fainting and being left where they lay in the snow?
-- It is not true. With the arrival of so many transports it was practically impossible to hold roll-calls, and at the utmost only two roll-calls were held each week.
How far was the river from the camp?
-- 400 to 500 metres.
Why did you not pump water from the river?
-- I had no apparatus or material.
Do you know that British troops did it with the material that was in the camp?
--Perhaps in the Wehrmacht barracks, but not in my camp.
Did you ever march some prisoners down to the river and let them get a drink?
--No, I was told that the water was not fit for drinking. The pumps worked with other water.
Do you know that is the water that has been used for the camp ever since?
--No.
You were using water out of the concrete tanks in the camp. Do you know what filth was found in those cisterns?
--No, I only know that when these ponds were pumped out for the first time there was dirt in them.
Was the reason you did not go to the General and tell him exactly what was happening because you were frightened to tell any decent person what was going on in your camp?
-- No.
There was a bakery in the Wehrmacht barracks capable of making 60,000 loaves a day. Do you not think that the General or any other decent person would have helped you with food if you had told them of the way in which these people were dying and shown them the living skeletons that were in your camp?
-- The General could not have helped me as the food that was in the stores could only be obtained by means of special indents and I could only get my food from civilian administration. He was not allowed to give me anything.
Did you ever ask him?
-- No. The food that was stored there was only for the Wehrmacht and the only thing I received from them was 10,000 loaves every week.
Did you not get vegetables from the Wehrmacht stores?
--No, but Camp No. 2 received some.
Is not the truth of the matter that you never tried in any way to help these people at all?
-- That is not true. I have written to the several firms to get additional food.
Kramer is questioned by the Judge Advocate (p. 181):

When a Jew was gassed and cremated at Auschwitz was any official record made in the records of the country of that person's death?
-- I do not think so. All these things were done by the Political department of Auschwitz No. 1.
Colonel Backhouse cross-examines Mrs. Rosina Kramer, the wife of Joseph Kramer (p. 183):

You said that Hoess had been sent to Auschwitz for the incoming transports. what transports were these?
-- I believe these were the transports which were destined for the gas chambers.
You knew about the gas chambers, then?
-- Everybody in Auschwitz knew about them.
www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/bergen-belsen/belsen-trial-03.html


So I hope you agree that he can be excluded as a WW2 Nazi Holocaust denier, though it seems that he was at least a temporary one, I'll get onto the others later, it will be interesting to find out more about them.
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