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TOPIC: Ok, heres the deal...

Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 19:23 #681

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Flare wrote:
This forum is the perfect example of why anarchy (chaos) does not and won't ever work.

If that's the case why did Britain have a war with Greece in 1946? The king's return to Greece reinforced British influence in the country. The reason was simple the Greek people were doing great operating in an Anarchic system brought about by the collapsed government as a result of the war. And that was simply not acceptable and Greece was not the only part of Europe to see such a system at that time. All crushed although an area of Spain kind of held on.

Lost tribes an the Amazon exist without government. The American Indians had a stateless system with a political system of elders. The native Australians had a stateless system of elders. I could go on but that should be enough evidence. look how well things went for all of them as well as us with our so called civilised State run systems.

Here's anarchy at work the State is represented my the traffic lights (control) and the people represent Stateless people. Note how people get on with it despite the absence of control. The reason being throughout the world people all want the same basic things and the State can't exist when people revert to their natural free state of being.



Kind of the point of the main debate in this thread.

Our problem is we have been trained to abdicate our power (freedom) to the State and no one is accountable or responsible for their own actions. A tiny percentage gain power over the State and control the system for their own ends as well as shits and giggles to amuse themselves at our expense (because they can i.e. war and mayhem).

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 19:32 #682

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@ Ausrotten.....

Don't bring up my posts or allusions to my posts in your subject matter and I will neither quote you nor respond to you on this subject.

Ball's in your court.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 19:36 #683

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Self moderated
Once a hyena always a hyena.
Last Edit: 31 Dec 2016 19:54 by Frothy.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 19:46 #684

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Zorro wrote:
Hey Frog, you're wasting your time trying to reason with that one. He'll try and tell you the grass is blue and not green if it means him having the last word and ''winning'' the argument. Utter waste of time trying to have an honest and rational argument with some people on the webs. The only thing it will achieve is leaving you feeling frustrated when they keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, and when you realize you've wasted valuable time trying to get them to see some sense.

This is a FACT.
and Zorro - if ONE 'mistake' ( venting Cinta's 'Der Spiegel' post ) being the only 'legit' mistake in SIX months , I'd say that makes you an excellent mod.
You're one the best posters in the field , My Truth needs strong , adept , people like you , who structure an argument with insight and precision.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 19:53 #685

annabelle wrote:
I don't say this easily but I will say it anyways.. Zorro is not capable of seeing his own constant double standards that have played out continuously, others can see them clearly, which leads to frustration. Zorro has believed he has had clear insights into other people's characters and motives, calling 'a spade a spade' as he puts it.. when he has been so off base in his insinuations and insults as to be...... not mod material... even though novum believes that he is..... BUT it is novum's forum and he can do what he likes.... not everyone here has to like it or agree. Frothy has raised many valid, logical and reasonable points when it comes to what his (and some others) issues are concerning the moderation and forum problems.

Something I had raised when Zorro was first placed as mod of the whole website was to ask him what the forum rules were.... there was ALOT of tension at the time of the decision to place Zorro as moderator of the entire forum and part of the considerable amount of tension also included Zorro's own behavior (he has admitted to trolling after all but views some of it as 'sense of humour'... that it is not the least bit funny to some other people...including the recipients...more like cruel and abusive...... his version of 'biting back' is sometimes his abusive response to a member rightly and truthfully defending themselves against his unwarranted accusations and insinuations) but never got an answer and so gave up questioning what the forum rules were going to be, they were apparently going to be for him (as forum moderator) to decide.

It is not unreasonable to expect a forum to have some general guidelines/rules members are expected to abide by along with the forum moderator since he is the one who has the 'authority' to enforce what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in a thread or post.

I mean c'mon, let's be honest here shall we? there are some stark and differing camps in this forum, there are 'independents', Zorro as moderator of the whole forum, is particularly friends with one section of the forum and most definitely at odds, long running and antagonistic odds, with other members of the forum, some of the antagonism or hostility with certain members has been going on for a long period, sometimes years, in other cases not so long but it is there nonetheless.... it is doubtful that that is going to change, it is also highly doubtful that novum is going to change his mind about his decision to have Zorro be the moderator of the forum......... so it is what it is....... I just disagree with making it seem like Frothy has not been making valid points using reason and logic in his arguments because he has been.

Things in this regard are not going to change because there are not going to be changes forthcoming...... I understand the concessions novum has made or tried to make with these sub-forums, it's not easy trying to deal with all these different types of personalities demanding different things from different sides from their own points of views and I think it's been probably enough to drive the forum owner of this place almost batshit.. :P .....but in my experience on a previous forum the best moderator was someone who though he had very strong views.... and you could go head to head with him on them no problem... he was always unbiased and fair in his moderation and seen as such, rightly so.... there was a maturity there that wouldn't have allowed him to troll certain members 'out of humour' and all this other crap.

If there is no one who truly is mod material (outside of novum's view) or willing or able to take on the job due to circumstances even if they were, it is better imo to go back to the way it was when novum was the only one in charge in addition to another member continuing the spam mod role.. but that is apparently NOT going to happen because it has been decided and as I mentioned before novum IS the forum owner and it is his right to decide how to run his own forum because there would not be a forum otherwise... us members also have the right to put our own perspectives in.

Oh give over, that load of nonsense came quite easy for you really, didn't it. So don't try and make out you're acting out of virtue.. You are not, annabelle. As far as I'm concerned anybody who sides with Mr arse-rot on my supposedly being an abusive mod is either confused or they're being dishonest and biased themselves. I've no intention whatsoever of censoring other peoples views and opinions. I'm really not interested in replying to these petty posts in depth anymore either. It's a complete waste of my time now. Move on and stop bearing grudges is my motto.

One of your main problems Annabelle is your apparent lack of a sense of humour. Lighten up, it's new years eve after all.

I'm not going to stop having a laugh here and there just because one or two members act like miserable old fogies around here, or because some miserable git feigns offense at everything. That's just not in my nature, so you can forget that ever happening. In fact the more you try and brow-beat me for having a laugh and a joke and taking the mickey from time to time, the more likely I'll do it when I'm in the right mood. :P
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. – Marcus Aurelius
Last Edit: 31 Dec 2016 20:05 by Return of Zorro.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 20:07 #686

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Flare wrote:
annabelle wrote:
I don't say this easily but I will say it anyways.. Zorro is not capable of seeing his own constant double standards that have played out continuously, others can see them clearly, which leads to frustration. Zorro has believed he has had clear insights into other people's characters and motives, calling 'a spade a spade' as he puts it.. when he has been so off base in his insinuations and insults as to be...... not mod material... even though novum believes that he is..... BUT it is novum's forum and he can do what he likes.... not everyone here has to like it or agree. Frothy has raised many valid, logical and reasonable points when it comes to what his (and some others) issues are concerning the moderation and forum problems.

Something I had raised when Zorro was first placed as mod of the whole website was to ask him what the forum rules were.... there was ALOT of tension at the time of the decision to place Zorro as moderator of the entire forum and part of the considerable amount of tension also included Zorro's own behavior (he has admitted to trolling after all but views some of it as 'sense of humour'... that it is not the least bit funny to some other people...including the recipients...more like cruel and abusive...... his version of 'biting back' is sometimes his abusive response to a member rightly and truthfully defending themselves against his unwarranted accusations and insinuations) but never got an answer and so gave up questioning what the forum rules were going to be, they were apparently going to be for him (as forum moderator) to decide.

It is not unreasonable to expect a forum to have some general guidelines/rules members are expected to abide by along with the forum moderator since he is the one who has the 'authority' to enforce what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in a thread or post.

I mean c'mon, let's be honest here shall we? there are some stark and differing camps in this forum, there are 'independents', Zorro as moderator of the whole forum, is particularly friends with one section of the forum and most definitely at odds, long running and antagonistic odds, with other members of the forum, some of the antagonism or hostility with certain members has been going on for a long period, sometimes years, in other cases not so long but it is there nonetheless.... it is doubtful that that is going to change, it is also highly doubtful that novum is going to change his mind about his decision to have Zorro be the moderator of the forum......... so it is what it is....... I just disagree with making it seem like Frothy has not been making valid points using reason and logic in his arguments because he has been.

Things in this regard are not going to change because there are not going to be changes forthcoming...... I understand the concessions novum has made or tried to make with these sub-forums, it's not easy trying to deal with all these different types of personalities demanding different things from different sides from their own points of views and I think it's been probably enough to drive the forum owner of this place almost batshit.. :P .....but in my experience on a previous forum the best moderator was someone who though he had very strong views.... and you could go head to head with him on them no problem... he was always unbiased and fair in his moderation and seen as such, rightly so.... there was a maturity there that wouldn't have allowed him to troll certain members 'out of humour' and all this other crap.

If there is no one who truly is mod material (outside of novum's view) or willing or able to take on the job due to circumstances even if they were, it is better imo to go back to the way it was when novum was the only one in charge in addition to another member continuing the spam mod role.. but that is apparently NOT going to happen because it has been decided and as I mentioned before novum IS the forum owner and it is his right to decide how to run his own forum because there would not be a forum otherwise... us members also have the right to put our own perspectives in.

:D

Yea, riiiiight.... you're so squeeky clean, nice and 'honest' ey? :chuckle:

As long as you are dodging certain subjects on this forum, you are the one who has got double standards.

Since we still haven't seen you respond to this one: www.truth-zone.net/forum/general-discussion/68688-question-for-annabelle.html

Which you probably won't.... as you have got.... Doubleeee standaaardds! :yup:

Which makes you just another Gremlin



:chuckle:

Creating a thread entitled 'Question for Annabelle' in the General Section of the forum solely to post this:

Flare wrote:
Hi Annabelle,

Due to Zax thread sliding like crazy, as he probably doesn't want you to see this video, I repost it here again to ask for your opinion as a good researcher about it:



Do you think he's correct here or not..?

And you do not understand why I have not given a response?

You say it is because I am 'dodging certain subjects' and because I 'have double standards' and that 'makes me another Gremlin'?? :facepalm:
Last Edit: 31 Dec 2016 20:47 by annabelle.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 20:41 #687

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^ I first posted that in the member-section, but as your forum-boyfriend Gremlin Zax went thread sliding like crazy, as he doesn't want you to see it, I decided to post in in the General section.

The way you deal with that subject as being a 'good researcher', and once again starting a "let's be honest" post regarding Zorro's moderating definately makes you a Gremlin as well yes.
You can’t understand the world without understanding the Truth of WW2 and you can’t truly understand WW2 without understanding the Truth of WW1. And to get the full picture you need to understand who the German people were as a race and culture before these world wars were created to crush them.

Germany did not start WW1 or WW2… the Germans have been the victims.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 20:50 #688

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Ausrotten wrote:
Self moderated

well Rat - Being the centre of attention must make you feel like King of the Hill - you crave attention , making mountains out of Mole Hills , twist and obfuscate at every turn , to interact with you over any length of time - if they haven't figured out after a week your a nutcase - only have one thing in common with you - they're totally anti revisionist, probably mindlessly getting their vaccinations like good little sheeple.
Last Edit: 31 Dec 2016 20:51 by Lizzy.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 20:55 #689

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Flare, perhaps it would be good to just chill out for awhile, enjoy the new year coming in, perhaps a nice sparkling rose, German of course, relax..

Last Edit: 31 Dec 2016 22:39 by annabelle.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 22:35 #690

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entrangermercenary1 wrote:
so even if you asked to be banned, it wont happen :larf: :cool2:

That's my kinda fukin forum :thumbup:
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 22:50 #691

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annabelle wrote:
Flare, perhaps it would be good to just chill out for awhile, enjoy the new year coming in, perhaps a nice sparkling rose, German of course, relax..


still remember when bringing a bottle of Mateus was considered 'classy' :D many moons ago :chuckle: ...I'm still working on my bottle of brandy ......... can't handle the hangovers these days :O lol.
Last Edit: 31 Dec 2016 22:53 by Lizzy.
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Ok, heres the deal... 31 Dec 2016 22:55 #692

rodin wrote:
entrangermercenary1 wrote:
so even if you asked to be banned, it wont happen :larf: :cool2:

That's my kinda fukin forum :thumbup:

Happy new year, send my regards to Asva as well :up:
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 00:37 #693

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Happy new year folks.

annabelle wrote:
I don't say this easily but I will say it anyways.. Zorro is not capable of seeing his own constant double standards that have played out continuously, others can see them clearly, which leads to frustration. Zorro has believed he has had clear insights into other people's characters and motives, calling 'a spade a spade' as he puts it.. when he has been so off base in his insinuations and insults as to be...... not mod material... even though novum believes that he is..... BUT it is novum's forum and he can do what he likes.... not everyone here has to like it or agree. Frothy has raised many valid, logical and reasonable points when it comes to what his (and some others) issues are concerning the moderation and forum problems.

I have to agree with Novum in as far as Zorro is capable of seeing his double standards, question is why isn't he? I don't know about any specifics but clearly enough people are expressing concern, and my suspicion is that the element of trust and respect has broken down. I also know that he has been a target and he has also targeted others before becoming a mod. For the most part and from my shabby memory he is/was drawn into the affray after goading etc. but as a rule he played fair up until that point. That seems like an excuse which isn't the intention my point is based on understanding the cause because unless you identify that you can't find a solution imho.

We are stuck with some long standing personality conflicts and some very strongly held views which conflict. The problem is the element of trust and mutual respect is absent on both sides. Obviously members expect mods to be squeaky clean and to be frank I'm a bit anal about that stuff myself. So believe me I get it! I have also been in his position and wrongly accused of stuff despite the fact I virtually never moderated anything.

The thing is trust and respect is a two way street and on top of that it has to be earned you can't demand either, and if you do you will lose both in an instant. Members need some faith in the mods and the mods need to accept that they have to set an example and as a rule the trust and respect has to flow from them. I get that that is difficult given the historical conflicts in this case and if I were in Zorro's shoes I would do my utmost to establish a neutral position. I don't know how it went down in Zorro's case and I haven't discussed it with Novum or Zorro. To all intents and purposes I have zero input beyond being a founder, Novum has kept the site going single handedly and I have no place to pass judgement on any aspect of how things are done here these days.

That said I can give my input from a members and administrative perspective and offer a possible solution with no intention of pointing fingers at anyone. I don't care who did or didn't do what to anyone. This is about moving things forward and whether or not that happens only the members (all parties) can decide.

There needs to be a burying of hatchets and Zorro needs to regain a neutral position as moderator with members as a poster he needs to gain the moral high ground setting an example. Which he is capable of provided members accept their responsibilities equally i.e when he is moderating treat him with the respect you expect him to extend to you. When people post they should treat everyone the way they expect to be treated, despite having differing views. Deliver your side of the argument without falling for fallacies and emotional triggers. If someone can't debate with out to resorting to those tactics simply ignore their posts and carry on with members who don't or exit leaving the troll twiddling their thumbs. Take a break and do stuff elsewhere for a day or two to clear your head.

We are all in control of ourselves and keeping our own heads healthy should be a priority. You're not going to cure an arsehole but you will look like one if you try. Know when to stop and stick to it regardless because you will feel all the better for it. You don't need to get the last word if you have already established your point. Give the reader credit for sorting the good from bad for themselves. You don't need to scream troll while jumping up and down! If you know it's a troll it's pretty safe to assume anyone with a brain can spot them as well. Why state the obvious? Isn't it smarter to deliver the message and leave the troll swinging in the breeze?
Something I had raised when Zorro was first placed as mod of the whole website was to ask him what the forum rules were.... there was ALOT of tension at the time of the decision to place Zorro as moderator of the entire forum and part of the considerable amount of tension also included Zorro's own behavior (he has admitted to trolling after all but views some of it as 'sense of humour'... that it is not the least bit funny to some other people...including the recipients...more like cruel and abusive...... his version of 'biting back' is sometimes his abusive response to a member rightly and truthfully defending themselves against his unwarranted accusations and insinuations) but never got an answer and so gave up questioning what the forum rules were going to be, they were apparently going to be for him (as forum moderator) to decide.

Well anyone who knows me knows I don't condone poor behaviour they should also know I don't dictate to others how to conduct themselves. I may and often do reference digressions in a response. That's just so people can see I'm aware and moved on. The guidelines are pretty clear and easy to apply imho. The issue is whether people apply them to themselves or not and that goes for mods and admins alike if not more so.

Moderation is open to debate here and always has been and I don't know how it can be more open than that? We have always tried to leave as much as we can open to the community. Novum and I don't need to conspire out back because one we come at things from the same direction for the most part and two we want you guys 'n gals to have a voice. Granted not every call will get the response expected.. We have tried the community vote approach and we failed because factions try and push out other factions. That doesn't wash here all factions coexists and that causes friction unavoidably. If people accept that and show mutual respect things become better all around. One thing's for sure Novum and I wont favour one over the other. DG, Novum and I haven't shifted on the core principles and we have had people from every side imaginable fighting us from day one to present. The three of us could/can take it on the chin along with kicks below the belt. We own our shit and all we ask is that others do the same.

It is not unreasonable to expect a forum to have some general guidelines/rules members are expected to abide by along with the forum moderator since he is the one who has the 'authority' to enforce what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in a thread or post.

I mean c'mon, let's be honest here shall we? there are some stark and differing camps in this forum, there are 'independents', Zorro as moderator of the whole forum, is particularly friends with one section of the forum and most definitely at odds, long running and antagonistic odds, with other members of the forum, some of the antagonism or hostility with certain members has been going on for a long period, sometimes years, in other cases not so long but it is there nonetheless.... it is doubtful that that is going to change, it is also highly doubtful that novum is going to change his mind about his decision to have Zorro be the moderator of the forum......... so it is what it is....... I just disagree with making it seem like Frothy has not been making valid points using reason and logic in his arguments because he has been.

Things in this regard are not going to change because there are not going to be changes forthcoming...... I understand the concessions novum has made or tried to make with these sub-forums, it's not easy trying to deal with all these different types of personalities demanding different things from different sides from their own points of views and I think it's been probably enough to drive the forum owner of this place almost batshit.. :P .....but in my experience on a previous forum the best moderator was someone who though he had very strong views.... and you could go head to head with him on them no problem... he was always unbiased and fair in his moderation and seen as such, rightly so.... there was a maturity there that wouldn't have allowed him to troll certain members 'out of humour' and all this other crap.

Neutral people seldom want to moderate simply because they are genuinely neutral. If you don't have a dog in the fight you don't care who wins and you don't have any shit to clean up. If you moderate on that bases all you get is the shit an we know that from experience.

So the next best thing is a mod who everyone knows is coming from a certain position at least there is a clear demarcation line and bias is easy to spot. The alternative is someone with a hidden agenda manipulating things behind the scenes which is the worst situation imho. We have checks in place to help prevent that. The community can challenge a bad call and Novum can settle as fairly as possible.

If people have an issue over a decision that they see as unfair they can open a thread and discuss it civilly like adults. There is no need for personal insults and petty squabbles. Present the case and let others endorse it or not as they see fit. That can only work if the majority are being honest about their reasoning. And there needs to be acceptance on both sides if things don't go their way every time.
If there is no one who truly is mod material (outside of novum's view) or willing or able to take on the job due to circumstances even if they were, it is better imo to go back to the way it was when novum was the only one in charge in addition to another member continuing the spam mod role.. but that is apparently NOT going to happen because it has been decided and as I mentioned before novum IS the forum owner and it is his right to decide how to run his own forum because there would not be a forum otherwise... us members also have the right to put our own perspectives in.

As I said members have the right to question the running of the site across the board. And we don't take an adversary position with members...we consider ourselves members first and foremost - the site management end of the deal sucks. Anyone that remembers Novum from the dif should know he messed about with light hearted stuff as well as presenting his serious info on Aussie water, global politics and symbology related stuff. If he has a laugh here he gets gunned down. He also considers you guys as a community where people get each others quarks. Hell the pay for ban thing was a bad idea. But I know it would have been done without ill will or bad intent because I get where he's coming from. Would it have flown if DG or myself were here to bounce the idea of no it wouldn't. He fucked up and he owned it as he always does. All three of us screwed up and had to suck up the fallout along the way. When did that happen on the dif? Icke couldn't distance himself enough and Sean just rewrote the rules and led his arse off.

This site isn't supposed to be like every other site it's as free and open as is possible. Not just free speech but in every respect we don't tie people in, push an agenda, sell you stuff or promote ourselves. Hell we have helped and encouraged people to do their own thing. We setup systems so members can do their own thing right here on TZ.

I can tell you what our biggest problem and crime is...guilt by association. Which is a common fallacy! People don't like one or another faction here so they tar everyone with the brush of their choosing and then run off crying. People who get what we are about ride it out. As a result we probably have a lot of strong personalities here which makes it a tough environment.

Anyway those are my thoughts and I'm sure they won't go down well with either side of the debate.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 01:33 #694

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In my view Zorro has done a good job , as has Novum all the way along , posts have always vented into 'excerpt threads ' and convos and slanging matches went along in parallel - TZ won't really exist without either one.
Some peeps acted like jackals when Zorro become a mod even before he'd made one move - complaining purely on the basis it was Zorro with whom they have historical and ideological differences and bruised egos after doing battle with him . It's not a playground here , it's never going to be .
Who ( besides the Rat ) is willing to step in an offer most and many of their days doing moderation ? few , if any .

The job was offered to Zorro , I thought it a very good choice , he didn't offer himself , he accepted the job along with the constraints on his time and has done it well in my estimation , very little changed from when Novum was the only person doing all the work.

Zorro\s mod position made him a target and some peeps took full advantage of it, getting even ( in their minds) for all the points Zorro had scored against them 'battling posts'.
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 01:35 #695

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Zorro wrote:
Hey Frog, you're wasting your time trying to reason with that one. He'll try and tell you the grass is blue and not green if it means him having the last word and ''winning'' the argument. Utter waste of time trying to have an honest and rational argument with some people on the webs. The only thing it will achieve is leaving you feeling frustrated when they keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, and when you realize you've wasted valuable time trying to get them to see some sense.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on that as of this writing.

BT has said he's willing to give it a go and I'm not going to judge until his actions don't match up with what says. Of course his adjustment needs to be met halfway so other peoples actions are of equal importance. If people want to move on he has taken the first step as part of that process so Some credit is due imho.

BT and I have had our moments in the past so I'm not exactly green.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 02:07 #696

  • Lizzy
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:ponda: we'll see ....... I've said my piece but I do happen to agree with zorro.
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 02:22 #697

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Ausrotten wrote:
Self moderated

Making a post and then deleting the contents isn't self moderating that's a form of system abuse.

Self moderating is not making a post you know isn't appropriate before you submit the post.
Self moderating is when you avoid escalating a situation by purposefully ignoring goading.
Self moderating is when you avoid goading, veiled sly comments and purposeful fallacies designs to pervert the conversation.
Self moderation is honest intent rather than insincere intentions masked as sincere well meant comments etc.

There's a difference between playing the game and playing the rules (guidelines in this case) and that wont go unnoticed by anyone here.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 03:00 #698

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Frog wrote:
Ausrotten wrote:
Self moderated

Making a post and then deleting the contents..
There's a difference between playing the game and playing the rules (guidelines in this case) and that wont go unnoticed by anyone here.

I thought it was an installation... a work of art :chuckle:

I think getting to the truth is a deadly serious matter, but some take it far too seriously...
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 03:06 #699

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annabelle wrote:
I don't say this easily but I will say it anyways.. Zorro is not capable of seeing his own constant double standards that have played out continuously, others can see them clearly, which leads to frustration. Zorro has believed he has had clear insights into other people's characters and motives, calling 'a spade a spade' as he puts it.. when he has been so off base in his insinuations and insults as to be...... not mod material... even though novum believes that he is..... BUT it is novum's forum and he can do what he likes.... not everyone here has to like it or agree. Frothy has raised many valid, logical and reasonable points when it comes to what his (and some others) issues are concerning the moderation and forum problems.

Something I had raised when Zorro was first placed as mod of the whole website was to ask him what the forum rules were.... there was ALOT of tension at the time of the decision to place Zorro as moderator of the entire forum and part of the considerable amount of tension also included Zorro's own behavior (he has admitted to trolling after all but views some of it as 'sense of humour'... that it is not the least bit funny to some other people...including the recipients...more like cruel and abusive...... his version of 'biting back' is sometimes his abusive response to a member rightly and truthfully defending themselves against his unwarranted accusations and insinuations) but never got an answer and so gave up questioning what the forum rules were going to be, they were apparently going to be for him (as forum moderator) to decide.

It is not unreasonable to expect a forum to have some general guidelines/rules members are expected to abide by along with the forum moderator since he is the one who has the 'authority' to enforce what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in a thread or post.

I mean c'mon, let's be honest here shall we? there are some stark and differing camps in this forum, there are 'independents', Zorro as moderator of the whole forum, is particularly friends with one section of the forum and most definitely at odds, long running and antagonistic odds, with other members of the forum, some of the antagonism or hostility with certain members has been going on for a long period, sometimes years, in other cases not so long but it is there nonetheless.... it is doubtful that that is going to change, it is also highly doubtful that novum is going to change his mind about his decision to have Zorro be the moderator of the forum......... so it is what it is....... I just disagree with making it seem like Frothy has not been making valid points using reason and logic in his arguments because he has been.

Things in this regard are not going to change because there are not going to be changes forthcoming...... I understand the concessions novum has made or tried to make with these sub-forums, it's not easy trying to deal with all these different types of personalities demanding different things from different sides from their own points of views and I think it's been probably enough to drive the forum owner of this place almost batshit.. :P .....but in my experience on a previous forum the best moderator was someone who though he had very strong views.... and you could go head to head with him on them no problem... he was always unbiased and fair in his moderation and seen as such, rightly so.... there was a maturity there that wouldn't have allowed him to troll certain members 'out of humour' and all this other crap.

If there is no one who truly is mod material (outside of novum's view) or willing or able to take on the job due to circumstances even if they were, it is better imo to go back to the way it was when novum was the only one in charge in addition to another member continuing the spam mod role.. but that is apparently NOT going to happen because it has been decided and as I mentioned before novum IS the forum owner and it is his right to decide how to run his own forum because there would not be a forum otherwise... us members also have the right to put our own perspectives in.

Wonderful and well written and thought out post.

Take your time in responding to the reply you got on it,as it deserves one and not from me.
I won't critique that reply.

For Rodin---- I'm glad the thread wasn't closed because there are some very insightful posts after my suggestion to do so.
The reason I suggested it is because everyone has been told that the status quo is the order of the day,but if folks want to "cry" or "not drop the bs" they can do so.

Not my bailiwick.

Wasn't about factions or petty squabbles or bans or more subforums or more or less Nazi schtick.

It was about the pages upon pages of identical spam and bumping of it in threads on the main boards when non-NS members attempt to post there on a regular basis and how that could be dealt with.But it always turns into a "you all bitch and moan and are all guilty" spiel.

And again.... the bans and demands are one-sided.Not coming from both sides.

And the mod issue isn't about demanding anyones removal,but that bias or not,,the playing field is not level,and if both co-founders fail to see what other members are telling them,then it is pointless to continue discussion,,,,at least for me.

Let others post and have cheerleaders come in and praise the mods and admins and leave it at that.

As Annnabelle notes,it is not just one or two incidents with biased moderation,but a pattern,and without guidelines the only recourse is appealing to Novum.So whether that works or not,it was much more balanced when he did it all alone.

But that is not happening and I accept that.

By the same token I will speak up on any hypocrisy.

Such as saying guidelines are just broad in scope and not cast in stone,and then targeting BT in the next heartbeat.

So that's the reason or reasons I suggested closing the thread.

But carry on folks. :thumbup:

And a Happy New Year.!

Agitator? Geez....keep the shoutdown buzzwords for those folks that buy it.
Last Edit: 01 Jan 2017 03:08 by zax.
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Ok, heres the deal... 01 Jan 2017 03:18 #700

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Hi Lizzy,

Long time no speak. I hope things are good with you.

Lizzy wrote:
In my view Zorro has done a good job , as has Novum all the way along , posts have always vented into 'excerpt threads ' and convos and slanging matches went along in parallel - TZ won't really exist without either one.

I can't comment on Zorro's modding directly because I don't know the facts. And I trust Novum's judgement on moderation. My point is that moderators should be setting an example and some times that means sucking up shit even if it's obviously a setup. That goes with the turf unfortunately. People aren't stupid and they can see when people are deliberately provoking others. Avoidance and diplomacy builds respect among the wider community as dose clear signs of impartiality. You can't be an effective mod if you don't have the trust and respect of the majority. Who would want the job without majority support? People wont hang around if mods aren't impartial and I speak from experience because I'm the first to leave if I don't see it. The dif was an exception because I was waiting for someone to do what DG did.

Some peeps acted like jackals when Zorro become a mod even before he'd made one move - complaining purely on the basis it was Zorro with whom they have historical and ideological differences and bruised egos after doing battle with him . It's not a playground here , it's never going to be .
Who ( besides the Rat ) is willing to step in an offer most and many of their days doing moderation ? few , if any
.

I know first hand what it's like I had the same shit from the get go here and I virtually never moderated anything unless it was a request.

The job was offered to Zorro , I thought it a very good choice , he didn't offer himself , he accepted the job along with the constraints on his time and has done it well in my estimation , very little changed from when Novum was the only person doing all the work.

Zorro\s mod position made him a target and some peeps took full advantage of it, getting even ( in their minds) for all the points Zorro had scored against them 'battling posts'.

I wasn't party to the moderation selection nor do I have any right to interferer in it! When I was told I wasn't surprised because I know Zorro can be even handed.

I don't doubt some took advantage but I can read and some of Zorro's replies in this thread is hardly the stuff to win hearts and minds. As a member I'm saying I'm not impressed seeing a mod speak to members in that way or using ad hominem's. It's not setting an example and it's not worthy of respect. Imho not reacting to petty nonsenses is the correct approach and respect will be given maybe not by the provocateur but the wider community and guest viewers.

Being played by people playing you isn't a good look and I wouldn't be happy donning it. The only one that wins is the one tugging the strings - why give them a win and damage your own reputation? Maybe it's just me eh?

My constructive criticism can be taken or left it will make no difference to me either way. I don't have a dog in the fight but I will continue to support Novum and the members of the site in whatever capacity I can not out of obligation but because I would like to see the site grow. A big reason for me lurking is because I have a knack of pissing all parties off in a single post, even though it isn't my intent.

I knew it was bad judgement as soon as I logged in but Novum was taking shit he certainly doesn't deserve. I know a lot of members appreciate his efforts, but DG and I were brought into the debate and Novum was left hanging so I stepped up.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 01 Jan 2017 03:22 by Frog.
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