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TOPIC: Turning science to twaddle, or what?

Turning science to twaddle, or what? 28 Aug 2013 13:09 #21

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So to develop my thinking in this area.
If we proceed with the idea that at a basic level we identify with everything and one around us, and then modify that by dissociating to a greater of lesser level with some aspects of what we observe. This could I would put forward have repercussions for the way different societies work. In that some political structures will become more oppressive than others not because of the economic structure but because of the management structure. i would also propose because any system with a top down structure will over time become more oppressive.
My reasons for thinking this are that even if an individual only very slightly dissociates themselves to hold a position this can have a marked effect. Think of an individual in a managing system. That individual in most of these systems is assessed by the person above, and administers the people below, so naturally that individual to hold their position will be more inclined to pleasing the person with authority over them than the people below, because that is how the individual maintains her position.
Consequently even in a very liberal management system the number of layers of management, each being just slightly inclined to the person above, and away from the needs of the person below could create an increasingly oppressive system on the people as we move down the structure.
Now if we think of 'Parkinson's law', which is a short book about management structures, and although written in a comic style, I have found one of the most accurate and perceptive guides to the working of management. We see that within any management structure there is a definite inclination over time to increase the layers of management.
So the thrust of what I am looking at here is that the first thing I have to look at if I am going to advocate what sort of society I would wish for it would have to be not which economic system it uses, but the one with as few levels of management as possible.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 28 Aug 2013 14:06 #22

jonb wrote:
So if we proceed with the thought that the individual starts well balanced and it is the action of outside forces which disturb that. Then what we have to ask is what sort of society is best for the individual.
My contention is that disputes of collectivist verse individualistic are redundant, because the individual with working mirror neurons would naturally fit both of these agendas. or alternately a society based purely on one of these agendas would only be representative of a part of the individual.
roughly what age does the development of the balanced individual takes place?
I'd say collectivism vs individualistic as a debate will only be redundant when the prevalence of the latter stops actively facilitating the suppression of the former, individualism is elitism pure and simple, it facilitates things like hierarchy forming, "remarkable" individuals are elevated above the herd, power is held in alienated individual spheres and in many places, in the individual person of a Monarch.

In an Individualist world collectivism amounts to a number of individuals organizing to secure their personal interests, they collectivise on a smaller scale (organizations, orders, socieities, Alliances, corporations, bureaucracies) to secure their interests, sustain their position, they understand the power of collective practice, so use their small elite to enforce the dominance of their collective (ultimately to benefit the individuals) at the expense of the greater collective.
Consequently even in a very liberal management system the number of layers of management, each being just slightly inclined to the person above, and away from the needs of the person below could create an increasingly oppressive system on the people as we move down the structure.
The chain of command stops somewhere though, would you say this could also be true: the person above is the society, team, organization as a collective, the representative of, or the actual "people below".
I guess in a corporation the people below would be consumers, in a society the citizens.
Could the needs of the people below create an increasingly oppressive system on the same "people below".
IE the need of some individual factions to require protection from other needy individualistic factions?
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 28 Aug 2013 14:15 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 28 Aug 2013 15:13 #23

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I could easily envisage a society, which might say elect their leaders, but the structure of the management system produced very oppressive results. Because it would be responsive to those in office not those who choose who might be in office.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 28 Aug 2013 19:23 #24

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Excelent post on this page jonb and Mike, very thought provoking....

I wish i could respond in a way that has the ability to evoke real world change...
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 28 Aug 2013 20:58 #25

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Bravo Jon! A great thread you have started! I would add +100 karma to you if I could! :thumbup:

I'm too tired to contribute right now, will do so in near future, hopefully tomorrow.
"I've often felt that dreams are answers to questions we haven't yet figured out how to ask."
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 29 Aug 2013 10:52 #26

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
roughly what age does the development of the balanced individual takes place?
When talking about this I was thinking in general terms. A presumption the individual is commonly well adapted, but that interaction with the environment can imbalance the individual. On the lines of Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
I'd say collectivism vs individualistic as a debate will only be redundant when the prevalence of the latter stops actively facilitating the suppression of the former, individualism is elitism pure and simple, it facilitates things like hierarchy forming, "remarkable" individuals are elevated above the herd, power is held in alienated individual spheres and in many places, in the individual person of a Monarch.

In an Individualist world collectivism amounts to a number of individuals organizing to secure their personal interests, they collectivise on a smaller scale (organizations, orders, socieities, Alliances, corporations, bureaucracies) to secure their interests, sustain their position, they understand the power of collective practice, so use their small elite to enforce the dominance of their collective (ultimately to benefit the individuals) at the expense of the greater collective.

In defense of individualism.
My personal view point.
I do not think everyone is the same, that all people are standard models, I think there is built into us a good deal of diversity, and this is not a problem but actually very much to to the good and a thing which society if it is to function well should desire of its citizens.
To put this in personal terms lets look at your own thread US 'herd mentality'. You voiced a contrary opinion to the group and report being quickly banned from that group. We both know that in a collectivist group which saw its objective that all individuals be equal and driven to be part of the group identity there would not be a place for maverick, or independent individuals. So we ourselves as you have depicted in that thread would naturally be excluded.
Now if this was just that a few individuals are left out, but the vast majority, gains by it, then fair enough hard cheese on us they can do what they want. However I think this exclusion damages the group. We know for instance a forum were everyone agrees is a dead thing there is no debate no examination, and sometime it is necessary to come up with contrary views just to get the members active. There is often nothing like a good troll to get all the parties talking and thinking.
If we look a nature the pack is not comprised of animals that exhibit uniform behavior, but each individual within the group often has behaviors that are not exhibited by others. In the wolf pack although there are the breading pair, the role of the second male is often that of policing the other animals, protecting the first pair, and checking on the distribution of food. In hunting younger fitter animals will do the major part of the chase, but then retire before the kill leaving that job up to older more experienced members of the pack. This makes perfect sense to me. If we all look at a problem in the same way we will all come up with the same answer. However there might be better solutions that are only evident if we look at things in a different way. So it would be better to look at a problem from multiple angles. To do that it is necessary to have multiple perspectives and within any group a range of individuals.
As such I would say that the healthiest society, which is best able to change and adapt is the group with the widest diversity.
Last Edit: 29 Aug 2013 10:54 by jonb.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 14:57 #27

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My brain hurts :O

It was a fast paced slick presentation and I agree, it relyed heavily on a lot of his own presumptions. I don't know about his agenda. I didn't think he said at the end that we didn't have the capacity to put things right - I thought he kind of left it open. So if he was trying to create helplessness he actually failed with me 'cos it went completely over my head.

When I watched it a red flag went up for me when he started to talk about mitocondrial eve and y chromosal man, or whatever they're called. You know, these scientists could be telling us anything at all as fact. I don't know with absolute certainty. I have good reason not to trust any of them. Who knows , maybe the research was funded by vested interests. Science is by and large a complete crock at this stage and the bigger the study the more iffy it is.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 15:57 #28

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I think the science works, but with this, video, like so much other stuff it is not the actual science that is wrong, but the conclusions that are foisted on to it. This is how the evidence is then twisted so that it can at some stage be used to support arguments that are entirely opposite to what the evidence shows.
Its like playing roulette, the house has a slight advantage, they can fix the wheel so nobody ever wins, but that would be to evident, so what the powers that be do is just is just tilt the table slightly.

So to start with we have an accidental finding that the monkey in the experiment understands what the man eating is doing and can feel it and has part of its brain that is empathetic.

We live in societies which constantly tell us we are not empathetic and it is all about competition. for instance the capitalist mantra that poverty dives to poor to work, or if there were no leaders to organise things we would not help each other. This is because the powers that be have to justify their existence.

However the experiment clearly shows even monkeys feel for each other and have empathy.This experiment is a huge problem for the powers that be, because it shows it is natural to feel for each other, we do not need leaders to help us do that.

Modern society is about switching off our natural empathy. That is why newspapers and other media constantly show stories and images of people who are in need, but depicting them as being lazy cheats, welfare scroungers, etc. This is to turn off our empathy, however those in control do not wish to admit their propaganda is about doing this. They have to hold the lie, that without them we would not help each other. So this experiment is a big problem for their agenda.

So the video twists the result of the experiment. The speaker just tilts the table.

The problem for the powers that be is that empathy is natural, and as it is in animals with small brains like monkeys and dogs, it is also present in us which later experiments have proved.

So how did the speaker twist the answer?
By bringing in arguments about mediaeval people not having empathy (Which is a complete lie) he introduced the idea of developing our empathy. This then saves the agenda of the powers that be, that they are not using any means to switch of our empathy, and introduces the idea that before we can help each other we have to develop our empathy. And we can guess who will do that developing.
He can now take up the position we ordinary people don't have empathy, not like the nice academics, and people who control us. Yes the science shows we have actual cells in our heads that are proven to show we have empathy , but he now has created an argument that in some way these cells are not yet developed enough in people. The results have now been turned on their head, black is white, white is black.

People are selfish, and do not care or understand each other and only better minds like his can lead us to a better future.And he will teach us lesser people how to be empathetic.

And thus, the lie of the structures we live in stays intact.
Last Edit: 25 Jan 2014 16:07 by jonb.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 16:23 #29

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G'day Johnb.

Thank you for the link to this thread. :thumbup:

I have read it, though it 2.30am here now, so I am posting now to remember to come back and add to the thread. ;)
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

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truth-zone.net/forum/research-zone-forum-feedback-and-faq/73338-flare-censor-promoter-of-bishop-williamson.html#357334
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 16:24 #30

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Well I suppose it's like all these techniques, they don't really work very effectively on critical thinkers. We don't need science to tell us that monkeys have empathy and if monkeys have empathy, well, that blows his theory of mediaeval people not having empathy. We also don't need science to tell us we don't need leaders.

You have amazing discernment, I didn't get any of that when I watched it :)

The science may be legitimate in this instance, but it isn't always. I have a good example that I'll maybe put up on the forum.

eta.......... I do believe that the research in neural pathways is legitimate, I was talking more about the dna stuff.
Last Edit: 25 Jan 2014 16:31 by littleweed.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 16:41 #31

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Please post, Littleweed.
How I came to the truth movement, was after looking closely at what was being said in standard academic texts, not only did I notice that, often what was said had nothing to do with the actual experiments, but I could see an agenda unfolding.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 16:46 #32

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littleweed wrote:
Well I suppose it's like all these techniques, they don't really work very effectively on critical thinkers. We don't need science to tell us that monkeys have empathy and if monkeys have empathy, well, that blows his theory of mediaeval people not having empathy. We also don't need science to tell us we don't need leaders.

You have amazing discernment, I didn't get any of that when I watched it :)

The science may be legitimate in this instance, but it isn't always. I have a good example that I'll maybe put up on the forum.

eta.......... I do believe that the research in neural pathways is legitimate, I was talking more about the dna stuff.


"In order to disprove a theory, you don't have to prove that all crows are black. You just need to show that one crow is white". (Socrates, Aristotle or some other ancient philosopher.... I can't rightly remember now :emb: ).

Very few "scientific theories" have no "white crow". They are just working along the lines of what is known NOW (which is rarely very much, as history shows).

:)
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if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 17:10 #33

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jonb wrote:
Please post, Littleweed.
How I came to the truth movement, was after looking closely at what was being said in standard academic texts, not only did I notice that, often what was said had nothing to do with the actual experiments, but I could see an agenda unfolding.

That's very interesting, I would like to hear more. I will try and put something up some time during the week.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 25 Jan 2014 17:20 #34

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[quote="cantata" post=94521

"In order to disprove a theory, you don't have to prove that all crows are black. You just need to show that one crow is white". (Socrates, Aristotle or some other ancient philosopher.... I can't rightly remember now :emb: ).

Very few "scientific theories" have no "white crow". They are just working along the lines of what is known NOW (which is rarely very much, as history shows).

:)[/quote]

Yeah, that sound like Popper's black swan theory. I agree with you, we don't know the half of it. :)
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 10 Oct 2014 09:08 #35

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.......... wrote:
jonb wrote:
You see there is this Empathy in action, our ability to get into each others skin to experience what each other feels. We all have it, an amazing ability! It is essential to our lives, we simply could not function without it. For me it is what art is all about. The ability to see from a different prospective than your own, that is the foundation of creativity, invention, of understanding.
So I am an individual, but at the same time a major part of my thinking is operating outside myself, and we are all doing this all the time.
It is a stunning ability.

It's certainly an interesting theory how top down management will somehow switch this empathy off.

Would that make the origins of top down management inherently evil?

dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/curiosity/topics/big-question-are-we-inherently-evil.htm

Seems to me Judaism and Freemasonry are examples of extreme top down management
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 10 Oct 2014 09:12 #36

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I would suggest that where this thread is leading is to identify that we do not need pyramid structured society to succeed. The public at large could self organise. Previously this was only possible in small family or tribe groups, but now we have the internet....

Politics should be consigned to the dustbin of evolution, and with it organised religion

edit

Who was Ultm8 seeker again? Talks more sense than some on the forum, even if he has the wrong end of the marxist stick...
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2014 09:17 by rodin.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 10 Oct 2014 09:35 #37

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rodin wrote:
I would suggest that where this thread is leading is to identify that we do not need pyramid structured society to succeed. The public at large could self organise. Previously this was only possible in small family or tribe groups, but now we have the internet....

Politics should be consigned to the dustbin of evolution, and with it organised religion

edit

Who was Ultm8 seeker again? Talks more sense than some on the forum, even if he has the wrong end of the marxist stick...




Atheist 'NS' and 'commies' have more in common than meets the eye at first sight.
The relationship between NS and communism is poorly understood by most present-day communists and anti-communists alike.
From my pov no atheist will ever be able to grasp authentic NS to its full extent and implications.


"The struggle we are now waging today until victory or the bitter end,
is in its deepest sense, a struggle between Christ and Marx.
Christ: the principle of love. Marx: the principle of hate."


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because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2014 09:39 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 10 Oct 2014 09:41 #38

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Christ and Organised Religion have as much in common as Music and The Music Business

edit

ie none

edit

... I might add to the thoughts of chairman rodin in my signature :ponda:
To understand who rules over you look to whom you tube can't criticise

The media isn't there to cover the news
It's there to cover the news up

All establishment lies pass through three stages
First, they are accepted as being self evident
Second, they are exposed by diligent research
Third, they are enforced

"Communism is the bloodiest, most difficult and the most terrible way from capitalism to capitalism" from Under the Sign of the Scorpion by Juri Lina
Last Edit: 10 Oct 2014 10:51 by rodin.
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Turning science to twaddle, or what? 10 Oct 2014 22:59 #39

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My view is that a lot is driven from top down as by agenda planning.
I don't think you can train empathy into anyone; either you got it or you don't .........
but I'm more then convinced you can train it out of those which had it once naturally; through millions of tools they are using these days!

Its clearly agenda driven as if the non empathy once are jealous of the once which having it naturally & systematically looking to make every one the way they are themselves!
Like the already sick once loving to infect everyone else to create more Zombie like drones; like themselves!


Corporations play a big role in our day-to-day activities and they are constantly making decisions that have a profound effect on our daily lives.

For example: a corporation makes the decision to empty its chemical vats into a nearby river - the water supply is poisoned and residents of the adjacent town fall sick; or a corporation makes the decision to cut costs to increase profits and initiates a round of layoffs - the community that was formed around the corporation is decimated.

We have often been appalled, angry, and go on rants about the evil of corporations but according to Simon Baron Cohen - evil is not the issue.

Mr. Baron-Cohen, an expert in autism and developmental psychology, is also a psychology and psychiatry professor at Cambridge University. For years he has spent considerable time researching why people commit vile and heinous acts.

His theory?

That a lack of empathy is the root cause of all evil deeds and that this lack of empathy can be measured and treated. He defines empathy as the drive to identify another person's thoughts and feelings combined with the drive to respond appropriately to those thoughts or feelings.

Baron-Cohen goes onto note that the lack of empathy or failure to utilize it to its full potential is the driving force behind most of what ails our society on a global, domestic, community, and family unit scale. The abstract arenas of diplomatic, legal, and military channels are insufficient to appropriately deal with conflict because their involvement forgoes empathy from entering the picture on a true person-to-person level.

In his books Baron-Cohen sets forth an empathy bell curve spectrum and quotient test that indicates where an individual will place along the curve. (Good news is that most of us fall right in the middle). There is a zero degree empathy range and within lay the psychopaths, narcissists, and individuals suffering with borderline personality disorders.

Corporations are legislatively derived artificial individuals that can sue and be sued, raise funds, make political decisions, etc. They are headed by a Board of Directors that is by law duty bound to make decisions in the best interests of the corporation.

Since corporations are businesses whose sole purpose is to make money, best interests are almost always those that increase profit, empathy be damned.

True, there are those corporate bodies, who while making a profit, strive to do no harm to society. However embedded deep within the zero degrees of that bell curve are corporations that seem to have made human suffering their side business.

For instance,

  • We have Monsanto, creators of Agent Orange, DDT, GMO, and a host of other toxic substances that have caused horrific damage and injury to the world on a global scale.
  • Firestone and their rubber plantations in Liberia which poison the environment, pay slave wages, and leave workers housed in unsanitary conditions.
  • Nestle and their cocoa plantations in the Cote d'Ivoire which employs children, pays them slave wages, and keeps them living in substandard conditions.
  • Big Pharma and their concerted efforts to keep us purchasing medicines that either don't work or cause more harm than good.
  • How about a corporation that has been accused of murdering individuals seeking to form unions to gain fair wages and treatment.
  • And we have the lovely Chiquita that was actually fined by the U.S. Justice Department for funding a known paramilitary group in Columbia that was infamous for the murder of innocent civilians.


  • Is there a criminal housed within any prison in the world or any mental institution that has committed the crimes noted above?

    Whether the answer to that question yes or no, the fact of the matter is not one person involved in making any of the above decisions has served any jail time.

    By their very definition corporations forgo empathetic decision making because they are abstract beings. When making decisions that directly affect humanity empathy is a necessary ingredient. Take away the capacity for empathy and you are left with what we have today - psychopathy corporations spreading what we would deem to be evil all over the world.

    The corporate machine is a cold calculating one that makes decisions that solely pay homage to the bottom dollar with the well being and needs of the human race coming up a distant second - if at all.

    Imagine a world where corporations were held to the same moral standards as individuals, a world where profits could not be made to the detriment of the environment, where fair wages were paid on a global scale, where government leaders weren't paid off by corporations to make decisions directly against the best wishes of the people they were elected to represent:
    Imagine a world where the corporate psychopaths were put to rest.
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_ponerology38.htm 



    Sources
    http://www.almostallthetruth.com/2010/10/nestle-sources-cocoa-from-the-labor-of-enslaved-children/ 

    http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/agentorange032102.cfm 

    http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/colombia0106/ 

    http://www.epa.gov/espp/litstatus/wtc/davids-letter.pdf 

    http://www.naturalnews.com/028194_Scott_Reuben_research_fraud.html 



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