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TOPIC: Ad Hominem Peer Review

Ad Hominem Peer Review 25 Jan 2016 18:49 #1

  • Robert Baird
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Many years later Carl Sagan did a back-stabbing hatchet job full of lies about what Velikovsky meant. Sagan appears to have not even read the book Worlds in Collision and he was accepting what others had said Velikovsky was doing to support the Bible myths. The whole book addressing this subterfuge is available in full on the web, and I will link it forthwith.

immanuelvelikovsky.com/Svbasic.htm

Needless to say I feel an affinity with the situation Velikovsky found himself caught in. I think many of his readers saw science was biased and lying. You should ask why this happens and read Re-discovering the Mind for more evidence of Sagan defending a soulless paradigm backed by lies. You will see a description of Peer Review that would make you think it works to advance science - but you must question that proposition.

"RELIGION, ASTROLOGY, SUPERSTITION

Sagan continues,

“Vigorous criticism of new ideas is a commonplace in science. While the style of the critique may vary with the character of the critic, overly polite criticism benefits neither the proponents of new ideas nor the scientific enterprise. Any substantive objection is permissible and encouraged; the only exception being ad hominem attacks on the personality or motives of the author are excluded.”[8]

This statement though laudable is, however, belied by Sagan impugning the motives of Velikovsky wherein he states,

“…how is it that Worlds in Collision has been so popular? Here I can only guess. For one thing, it is an attempted validation of religion. The old Biblical stories are literally true, Velikovsky tells us, if only we interpret them in the right way… Velikovsky attempts to rescue not only religion but also astrology; the outcomes of wars, the fates of whole peoples, are determined by the positions of the planets.”[9] [emphasis added]

This undisguised slur on Velikovsky’s motives by Sagan was strongly responded to by Velikovsky when he stated,

“Sagan next presents ‘Velikovsky’s Principal Hypothesis’ and he purports faithfully to tell what it is… Sagan says, ‘at the moment Moses strikes his staff upon the rock, the Red Sea parts…’ Later, ‘after the death of Moses…the same comet comes screeching back for another grazing collision with the Earth. At the moment when Joshua says, ‘Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou Moon, in the Valley of Agalon…the Earth obligingly ceases its rotation.’ He [Sagan] later says that I, ‘attempt to rescue old time religion.’ To tell of Velikovsky’s principal hypothesis in this vein is nothing but purposely misleading.”[10]

Velikovsky was justifiably incensed because, in Worlds in Collision, just the opposite information was presented,

“The sea was torn apart. The people attributed this act to the intervention of their leader; he lifted his staff over the waters and they divided. Of course, there is no person who can do this and no staff with which it can be done. Likewise in the case of Joshua who commanded the sun and the Moon to halt their movements.”[11]

To attribute to Velikovsky information which he never presented in his book is essentially an ad hominem attack on Velikovsky’s personality and motives. The earlier laudable statements of Sagan are contradicted by his own words.

What is Velikovsky’s view of religion, astrology and superstition? In Earth in Upheaval, Velikovsky presented his opinion regarding Darwin and The Church on evolution.


Darwin’s theory represented progress as compared with the teaching of the Church. The Church assumed a world without change since the Beginning. Darwin introduced the principle of slow but steady change in one direction, from one age to another, from one eon to another. In comparison with the Church’s teaching of immutability, Darwin’s theory of slow evolution through natural selection or the survival of the fittest was an advance.”[12]"
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Ad Hominem Peer Review 25 Jan 2016 18:59 #2

  • Robert Baird
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Here is the level of what passes for thinking among Randi and Shermer groupies.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post10972502

“To attain Knowledge, add things every day. To attain Wisdom, remove things every day.” (Lao Tzu)

THREE LAWS - MAGIAN vs. Ignocenti:

1. As Above, so Below.

1a. I am (fill in the blank with national origin, racial type - often not known or mixed and not known, religion - seldom studied), therefore I KNOW and you do not unless you are pure (fill in the blank).

2. KNOW, WILL, DARE, Keep Silent (no longer true IMHO). Scrire, Potere, Audere, Tacere.

2a. I have a degree from ___________.

3. RIGHT THOUGHT = RIGHT ACTION.

3a. What was good enough for my grandpappy and dad is good enough for me (and should be for you)!
Last Edit: 25 Jan 2016 19:00 by Robert Baird. Reason: add color
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Ad Hominem Peer Review 25 Jan 2016 19:02 #3

  • ragnarok
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The less one knows about science, the more plausible Velikovsky's scenario appears.... --Leroy Ellenberger

It's not like it was just Sagan who thought he was full of it. Don't direct your argument at me tho', direct it at the author here.

www.skepdic.com/velikov.html
Even if the established theory is eventually shown to be false and the upstart theory eventually takes its place as current dogma, it would still have been unreasonable to have rejected the old theory and accepted the new one in the absence of any compelling reason to do so.
Last Edit: 25 Jan 2016 19:10 by ragnarok.
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Ad Hominem Peer Review 25 Jan 2016 21:01 #4

  • Robert Baird
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Yes, I put those guys up on the thread at W-M and Hess too.

In the final analysis Velikovsky got lucky on the Jupiter to Venus calculations and heat of the sun - as I see it.

But like Churchward (who was totally wrong about geology and a lost continent) he has been proven more correct than most others of his era - or in the case of Churchward still being proven more correct every day. Today I looked around and found five new discoveries I had stated would be found. The science daily people were still talking about Neanderthal people disappearing 40,000 years ago. I am likely a Neanderthal and DNA shows 3-5% of European blood comes therefrom.
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Ad Hominem Peer Review 02 Feb 2016 13:19 #5

  • Robert Baird
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Pavlopetri



If this is the oldest underwater city I will eat my hat with no ketchup. Lake Titicaca has a city under the water and what is off Cuba or near Japan seem like cities. Anyway it is good to see earlier dates than they thought and they admit it could be far older. Six thousand years old would still be recent compared to the mines under the Mediterranean near Marseilles. I hope to live long enough to see what is off Carnac in the Bay of Biscay near Brittany and all the megaliths which I have seen archaeologists on TV say are larger and more extensive under the water. Will Turkey soon let Ballard and archaeologists using his equipment to verify what they found at the bottom of the Black Sea (which went under water before 5,000 BCE).

phys.org/news/2009-10-pavlope...submerged.html

"The world's oldest known submerged town has been revealed through the discovery of late Neolithic pottery. The finds were made during an archaeological survey of Pavlopetri, off the southern Laconia coast of Greece.

Marine geo-archaeologist Dr Nic Flemming of the National Oceanography Centre, Southampton said: "The discovery of Neolithic pottery is incredible! It means that we are looking at a port city which may be 5000-6000 years old, with trade goods and wrecks nearby showing some of the very earliest days of seafaring trade in the Mediterranean."

The project is being carried out by a multidisciplinary team, including Dr Flemming, led by Mr Elias Spondylis, Ephorate of Underwater Antiquities of the Hellenic Ministry of Culture in Greece and Dr Jon Henderson, an underwater archaeologist from the Department of Archaeology at The University of Nottingham.

The underwater city was discovered in 1967 by Flemming, then at the National Institute of Oceanography. He worked out that it was Bronze Age, about 2000 BC, and arranged the permit for a team from Cambridge University to map it properly in 1968, which they did using just snorkels and tape measures. The results were published by The British School at Athens in 1969, but no further work has been done over the last 40 years. The site was so remote that its isolation protected it from human interference, while a submerged ridge of rock protected it from erosion.


Pavlopetri -- the world's oldest known submerged town
Nic Flemming -- The curvature of the sea surface and the nearby walls is of course caused by the "fish-eye" lens. There is an obvious wall across the foreground, slightly curved, and two huge wall foundations stretching away parallel …more

Now in his 70s, Flemming has joined forces with archaeologists from the University of Nottingham and the Ephorate of Underwater Antiquities of the Hellenic Ministry of Culture as part of a five-year collaborative study of the site. The survey methods include laser range-finding on the surface and high-frequency sector-scanning sonar underwater. Their initial findings, and especially the discovery of Neolithic ceramics, mean that the submerged city was occupied at least 5,000 years ago, 1,200 years earlier than previously believed, and perhaps based on a primitive settlement much earlier still. The findings have been made public by the Greek government.

"What we've got here is something which is two or even three thousand years older than most of the submerged cities which have been studied," said Flemming: "And it is uniquely complete. We have almost the complete town plan, the main streets and all of the domestic buildings. We can study how it was used as a port, where ships came in and how trade was managed."


The total town area is about 100,000 square metres, about half of which has so far been mapped. Much is still covered by sand. The team has already found a new area of ruins, measuring about 100 by 100 metres.

Flemming is running the studies of sea-level change and tectonics at the site, while colleague Dr Neil Wells of the University of Southampton's School of Ocean and Earth Science at the National Oceanography Centre and one of his students have already modelled winds and waves to work out aspects of coastal sand transport and erosion.


Pavlopetri -- the world's oldest known submerged town
This is a rectangular cist grave made by four stones standing on edge. The markings on the range pole are in 25cm bands. Credit: Nic Flemming

There is a lot more work to do in analysing the sand movements over the site, plotting various findings of submerged 'beachrock' which can be dated showing earlier shorelines now hundreds of metres offshore, and modelling the process of inundation itself.

The Hellenic Centre for Marine Research plans to provide a geophysics research boat in 2010 to measure the sub-bottom profiles to get sediment thickness in key areas around the submerged city, and confirm the position of the shoreline at different dates.

The permit runs for another four years.

Source: National Oceanography Centre, Southampton"
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