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TOPIC: Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum?

Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 05 Sep 2016 23:29 #121

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It's one thing to believe and propagate (shill) "mainstream dogmas".

It's another to just observe for yourself and conclude.

The idea that "whatever 'alternative' idea must be correct, only because the mainstream should be wrong" is a foolish idea.

I agree with rodin about the hypothetical though experiment of wolfy; the plane on a conveyer belt -as I understood it, running perpendicular to the airplane lift-off direction-.

The cause; the wheels. Although they are not controlled by the engines of the plane, they are the transfer devices to the ground and thus make lift-off possible (due to traction). No traction, no lift-off speed reached, no lift-off. The conveyer belt can thus be substituted by a slippery/icey surface which produces the same; no traction, so no lift-off.
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Last Edit: 05 Sep 2016 23:30 by Gaia.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 06 Sep 2016 04:16 #122

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^ That's what I thought first of all, but as the Fonze says, that was not right.

The idea for take off is to minimise traction, on a slippery ice surface the plane would take off even with wheel brakes fully applied.

The wheels are being dragged along by the plane, they will just start slipping on the conveyor belt in favour of the plane.The wheels are attached to the plane not the conveyor. When the conveyor motor and plane engines conflict the wheels will go with that to which they are attached, that's simple physics.
You will always be a hyena.
Last Edit: 06 Sep 2016 05:57 by Frothy.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 06 Sep 2016 13:22 #123

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novum wrote:
PFIZIPFEI wrote:
This thread became very slow after the comments were removed from the concave earth thread ....
does this mean you all suddenly agree now? If so, on what exactly?

My comments about the pitot speed readings make sense to me (why it wont read more one way than the other), and the 'hand of god' comment is putting it about as simply as i could, i think.

PFIZIPFEI wrote:
And I guess you did understand why this should be impossible,
but maybe you are a believer of rodin's system induced religion.

Is he wrong about refraction and observed phenomenon with sunsets though?

That is an accepted phenomenon in mainstream science.

Here is an interesting discussion, it goes over atmospheric refraction but also delves into other things regarding the nature (shape) of earth...

www.metabunk.org/atmospheric-sunlight-refraction-arguments-on-the-eratosthenes-triangulation-method.t7801/



Why did you inactivate the link - this - when you quoted part of my comment?
I activated it again, so that the sense of what I said remains understandable and clear for everybody.


metabunk is a system website, just like rationalwiki, psiram, esowatch and many others truth-zone.net/forum/researchers-and-presenters/63563-brother-nathanael.html?start=100#207200 as is commonly known. Their only raison d'être is to keep up the system dogmas and "debunk", ridicule, silence and suppress contrarian theories on all levels: truth-zone.net/forum/general-discussion/67629-metabunk-mick-west.html#230007


Are you saying that you believe that the fact that you can see twice as far as you should be able to according to the commonly accepted convex curvature of the earth bears no contradiction?
So how far away do you think we can see ships on the horizon on the convex earth?
At which distance exactly will they vanish due to convexity, if wikipedia - link - states false numbers?


I would like to emphasize two facts again:

1. The Copernican conception of the world admittedly is totally unproven.
2. The concave earth theory is also able to explain the entire celestial mechanics and all other phenomena in the universe consistently.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI4O7ghwwtg reasonable Jewish lady



novum wrote:
Well the self appointed 'intellectual elite' want to be the only ones who are really educated on these things, imho. Keep the rest of us in the dark.

Ive seen shillary try and convince people to stay away from antarctica for one, now that advances in technology mean that privateers and small scale (lower budget) operations can have a go.
truth-zone.net/forum/general-discussion/67849-cryptozoology.html#229976

:thumbup:


Reference on TZ:

LIGHT BENDS truth-zone.net/forum/pfizipfei-forum-general-discussion/67267-light-bends.html
Calculate the distance to the Sun (where is the Sun?) truth-zone.net/forum/my-zone-by-pfizipfei/67097-calculate-the-distance-to-the-sun-where-is-the-sun.html
Cabbalistic Origins of Physics - Science = Religion truth-zone.net/forum/science-and-physics/63548-cabbalistic-origins-of-physics-science-religion.html
The Religious Origins of Globalism truth-zone.net/forum/secret-societies-and-powerful-families/65184-the-religious-origins-of-globalism.html



I would like to know what Wolfy has to say about your explanations and whether he is now agreeing with you,
although I don't have a dog in the fight or a horse in the race as we say in German.

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feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

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Last Edit: 06 Sep 2016 13:37 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 06 Sep 2016 14:41 #124

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
metabunk is a system website, just like rationalwiki, psiram, esowatch and many others truth-zone.net/forum/researchers-and-presenters/63563-brother-nathanael.html?start=100#207200 as is commonly known. Their only raison d'être is to keep up the system dogmas and "debunk", ridicule, silence and suppress contrarian theories on all levels: truth-zone.net/forum/general-discussion/67629-metabunk-mick-west.html#230007

That is not an answer to the point made. Answer the point, not attack the source, less if it's a forum where people with different views can post their ideas.
Are you saying that you believe that the fact that you can see twice as far as you should be able to according to the commonly accepted convex curvature of the earth bears no contradiction?

Where and when can one see twice as far?
So how far away do you think we can see ships on the horizon on the convex earth?
At which distance exactly will they vanish due to convexity, if wikipedia - link - states false numbers?

It depends on many factors, most notably the temperature of and moisture in the atmosphere.
I would like to emphasize two facts again:

FACTS?? Hahaha, no, they are loose, empty claims. And you, as always, avoid addressing critical reviews of those claims.
1. The Copernican conception of the world admittedly is totally unproven.

In which sense? What is unproven? That we cannot go the space to take pictures of the Earth is not a "fault" of the theory.
2. The concave earth theory IDEA is also NOT able to explain the entire celestial mechanics and all other phenomena in the universe consistently.

You just repeat a quote of the Holtweltscheisse by Johannes Langsam from 1932. It is demonstrably wrong, as I have shown in some simple slides that were -how surprising [/sarcasm]- left untouched by you and your buddy "Reality" "Analyst". :facepalm:

Again just claims, armwaiving. No "Concave Earth proponent" has ever come up with a decent simple formula. Just scream "Light BENDS", and the non-scientist sheeple like yourself are satisfied.

That analysis was just the start of something. Yet conandrum turned it into the end. "Look, I have found a point that begs questions: SO, the Earth is concave!!1!1!!!" :iitm:

There are certainly areas of science that are religion, but those are "theoretical". The simple observations we can make everyday are not and it's them that disprove CESI completely.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 06 Sep 2016 18:31 #125

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novum wrote:
Now... imagine you are a god (easy for me :joker: ) ... and you were chilling in space outside of earth sitting in the same spot not moving, but orbiting the sun together with earth and watching earth spin, and stuck your god hand into the atmosphere and held that pitot absolutely still against the atmosphere.

Air is now crashing into the pitot at 1000mph. It would read 1000mph.

This is what a plane has to do in order to move at 1000mph relative to a point on the ground when it wants to travel against earths rotation... it must add that amount of power/thrust counter the earths rotation.

Its now doing 1000mph vs the ground, and the air going into the pitot is still only 1000mph.. its not 2000mph.

Sorry about not replying sooner I have been super busy.....

I totally agree with this above.

Posted about the relationship between groundspeed and airspeed earlier in the thread:

The simpliest way to say it is that groundspeed is true airspeed corrected for wind. Say you're flying along at 150kts into a 10kt headwind. You'll be moving through the air at 150kts, but only moving along the ground at 140kts.


www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737503

Along the way, you reached the same logical conclusion as me, that if a plane traveled to its destination, against the rotation of the earth, at 1000mph, it wouldn't actually be moving at all, but would in effect remain stationary, and the earth would move underneath it, bringing the destination to the plane in an hours time.

The problem is, Pilots do not think this is the case and in fact think you quite stupid if you say that.

I have just googled the question and an interested thread is here on the subject, seems to have covered most of the stuff we did..

www.physicsforums.com/threads/earths-rotation-speed-question.613919/

It would appear they say that our logical conclusion is wrong and the general consensus is that the plane acts in exactly the same way no matter which way it travels.

Question, What is the difference between atomoshere and wind?
It was always going to happen!!

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Last Edit: 06 Sep 2016 18:32 by wolfy.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 07 Sep 2016 00:56 #126

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Id say atmosphere should be considered as moving in the same direction and speed as earth.. and wind is anything beyond the rotation speed of the earth, plus or minus depending on direction.

So wind will change the relationship between the atmosphere speed in a sense vs the earth speed on solid ground. So it will change how fast a plane can go or wants to go (how much speed it needs to create ) in order to reach a destination in a certain time.. so it will change the pitot speed which i think is what you might be getting at.

And obviously I dont agree that the plane acts in the same way.... if we consider the accepted HC model of earth ofc, then when observed from outside earths system, the plane would not be acting the same either way...

.... but for all intensive purposes when we are inside earth and her atmosphere i suppose it does act in the same way from our perspective in a sense... it feels the same either way. But yes i dont agree with it being the same.

Pilots arent scientists or mathemeticians i suppose? :wissl: :hahano:

Pfiz, i sincerely didnt consciously inactivate any link, i now see what youre saying.. i guess i mustve had your quote all chopped up and fkd it up when i put the post together, wasnt intentional by any means, i didnt even realise until you posted about it.
Last Edit: 07 Sep 2016 03:14 by novum.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 07 Sep 2016 08:58 #127

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Side Note

If we are talking about and incorporating the impact of atmoshphere and wind in the convex model, I think it's necessary to take a close look at the commonly accepted by system scientists definitions first:


- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind


If we want to include a comparision in this discussion, we first of all need to take into account that In the concave model the earth is stationary.

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only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
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where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 07 Sep 2016 09:38 #128

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Surely wind can be considered to be swirling, it will have the same effect regardless of the direction of flight. ie at one edge of a windstorm the flow may appear to be moving from north to south, but at the opposing edge of the same windstorm the flow may appear to be south to north....etc but it's actually going around, so will cause a disturbance however it is entered by a plane.
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Last Edit: 07 Sep 2016 09:42 by Frothy.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 07 Sep 2016 14:12 #129

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
metabunk is a system website, just like rationalwiki, psiram, esowatch and many others truth-zone.net/forum/researchers-and-presenters/63563-brother-nathanael.html?start=100#207200 as is commonly known. Their only raison d'être is to keep up the system dogmas and "debunk", ridicule, silence and suppress contrarian theories on all levels: truth-zone.net/forum/general-discussion/67629-metabunk-mick-west.html#230007

Sure, i caught some of your posts on that.. but some of the comments i linked to there do not only exist there on metapedia of course, just saying. Refraction is an accepted phenomenon, as far as mainstream goes.

PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Are you saying that you believe that the fact that you can see twice as far as you should be able to according to the commonly accepted convex curvature of the earth bears no contradiction?

So how far away do you think we can see ships on the horizon on the convex earth?

At which distance exactly will they vanish due to convexity, if wikipedia - link - states false numbers?

I cant answer that tbh, if id done testing myself then i could.. my only answer would be reading other shit and repeating it, thats my truthful answer. :hahano:

So how far, i dont know.

Twice as far, seems quite excessive... can refraction have that much of an effect? I dont know.

PFIZIPFEI wrote:
I would like to emphasize two facts again:

1. The Copernican conception of the world admittedly is totally unproven.
2. The concave earth theory is also able to explain the entire celestial mechanics and all other phenomena in the universe consistently.

A number of models can work when configured correctly, yes... not just HC and concave.

PFIZIPFEI wrote:
reasonable Jewish lady

They do exist. :P

Could you also file that under "Things oracle would never say" :larf: :P
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 11 Sep 2016 14:01 #130

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novum wrote:
Sure, i caught some of your posts on that.. but some of the comments i linked to there do not only exist there on metapedia of course, just saying. Refraction is an accepted phenomenon, as far as mainstream goes.

I don't understand why you are referring to metapedia in this respect.
Is it a joke?



novum wrote:
I cant answer that tbh, if id done testing myself then i could.. my only answer would be reading other shit and repeating it, thats my truthful answer. :hahano:

So how far, i dont know.


Here again, the wikipedia list from the link I posted:


Altitude - Limite de vision (Altitude - Limit of vision)

1,70 m - 4,7 km => a 1,80 m (5.91 ft) tall man can see about 5 km (3.11 miles)
3,00 m - 6,2 km
10 m - 11,3 km
50 m - 25,4 km
75 m - 31,1 km
100 m - 36,0 km
250 m - 56,9 km
500 m - 80,4 km
750 m - 98,5 km
1 km - 113 km
1,5 km - 139 km
2 km - 160 km
3 km - 197 km
4 km - 227 km


(gogol trans)
With a mean earth radius of 6371 km counted (for more details see [2]) the ideal surface of the earth deviates from a tangent plane downward (radially towards its center):

0,8 mm auf 100 m
20 mm auf 500 m
78 mm auf 1000 m

1,96 m auf 5000 m
7,85 m auf 10.000 m


So you should only be able to see a ship minus 6.28 m if it is 8 km away.
Which means a small ship with a hight of 6.28 or smaller should disappear on the convex horizon
and a big ship's hull should not be visible - as is clearly the case in the relevant video - completely,
but minus the lower 6.28 meters of the hull.

According to mainstream wikipedia: fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courbure_terrestre (Curvature of the earth)
Sorry, did not find it in English there, only in French and German de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdkr%C3%BCmmung, but the distances are of course the same in any language ;)

Ref.: truth-zone.net/forum/science-and-physics/65805-poll-i-saw-the-curvature-of-the-earth-with-the-naked-eye.html?start=120#229547



novum wrote:
Twice as far, seems quite excessive... can refraction have that much of an effect? I dont know.

Wouldn't you want to know?

Apparently not: truth-zone.net/forum/science-and-physics/63418-hollow-world-theory-inner-world-cosmos-skycentrism-we-live-in-the-concave-earth.html?start=1600#229265



novum wrote:
A number of models can work when configured correctly, yes... not just HC and concave.

Which one?



novum wrote:
They do exist. :P

Could you also file that under "Things oracle would never say" :larf: :P


I think it's unfair to assume things that people might think, say or do or not,
when they are not around to defend their actual point of view.


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"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

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Last Edit: 11 Sep 2016 14:37 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 11 Sep 2016 14:23 #131

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Wouldn't you want to know?

You might believe, but you do not know... you only think you do. :)
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 11 Sep 2016 14:34 #132

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novum wrote:
PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Wouldn't you want to know?

You might believe, but you do not know... you only think you do. :)


Are we now entering the meta-philosophical realm?

You say "you" like in "one" or "everybody"?

What do the wikipedia figures in my previous post tell you?

They represent the "commonly accepted evidence" for the "commonly accepted model".

Btw, why are you more often than not ignoring the main points in comments?

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because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
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and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 11 Sep 2016 14:58 #133

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I know how to find those numbers, thanks.

I was referring to alleged variables in refraction when i said i cant answer the question of how far i could see any given ship, because the individual circumstances of each case vary. My comments were based on taking refraction into account, which shouldve been quite obvious given the course the discussion had taken, namely that said ship was too far away to be visible, by convention.

Instead of addressing the refraction phenomenon (even if you can assume for arguments sake its not proven, im not asking you to believe in it)... well you havent addressed it at all, and instead talk about the fixed distances like the wikipedia info.

As for various earth (and beyond) models ive seen a number of them over the years that could work.. in theory.... and that includes concave, convex, and flat. Note i said in theory. Some models present more problems than others, and require some quite unlikely co-incidences to exist, in order to work as described. And its almost midnight here so forgive my brief responses as im fading... and im not going to trawl through the web to try find stuff ive watched or read in the past anyway.

And btw youre taking my 'i dont care' comment somewhat out of context, and the context is probably more apparent when the entire post and course of conversation you plucked it from is considered.... what i meant by that was i have no affiliation to any given system, no dogmas, nor do i feel a strong need to defend or promote any given system... but i will and do look at and notice anything that is presented and is plausible to me... its not exactly the same thing as 'i dont care' .
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 02 Aug 2017 14:00 #134

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Does anybody know why wolfy is no longer coming here?

Last Visit Date: 02 Nov 2016

Hope everything is alright with him.


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"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

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Last Edit: 02 Aug 2017 14:01 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 03 Aug 2017 01:47 #135

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Not sure where he is, I kinda miss the old chap.

I do recall him saying he can be very busy, so its probably just life.

Even before his last round of posting, he was MIA here for a while.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 03 Aug 2017 07:36 #136

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Yes, I miss him, too, that's why I asked ...

Btw, yesterday I noted that I couldn't edit or delete my post.

That was strange.

The features are back now for this post, but edit is still impossible on the previous post.

.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 03 Aug 2017 07:37 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 03 Aug 2017 11:24 #137

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Yes, I miss him, too, that's why I asked ...

Perhaps he stole a plane to go up and figure all this out for himself, and crashed into the firmament. :P

PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Btw, yesterday I noted that I couldn't edit or delete my post.

That was strange.

The features are back now for this post, but edit is still impossible on the previous post.

.

The edit times been changed... six hours isnt enough time? :wissl:

If it was within 6 you shouldve been able to edit it.
Last Edit: 03 Aug 2017 11:27 by novum.
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 03 Aug 2017 11:29 #138

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novum wrote:
six hours is enough time. :thumbup:


Was there a particular reason for this?

You could restrict the allowed period of editing on every thread ....

forum god


:)
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
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Airplane Airspeed/Groundspeed Conundrum? 03 Aug 2017 14:45 #139

  • novum
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Its an across the board setting, i cant restrict it here and there, when the allowable post edit time is entered in the forum configuration, it applies across the forum.
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