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TOPIC: What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ?

What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 11:19 #1

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I'm genuinely curious.

Where is the line drawn between seeing the obvious in what is going on & crossing over into cloud cuckoo land where everything that happens is a conspiracy?
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 11:56 #2

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I think the line between seeing the obvious in what is going on and crossing into cloud cuckoo land is research.

How many people who are interested in conspiracy take the time to do some proper research? It's easier to look to conspiracy personalities, although they do encourage people to do their own research.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 12:00 #3

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Good question.

Evidence? Or lack thereof?

Now for some more specific things, i dont think it is a conspiracy theory to say that governments seem intent on catering to large corporations, the corporate lobby groups control governments in my opinion.

And we see huge sums of taxpayers money pouring into corporations sometimes via government. These corporations have wealthy shareholders.

Some even argue that governments themselves are corporations who have shareholders themselves. :hahano:

Example...



Then we get into the whole surveillance deal. Some argue that all of this is to ensure the status quo is never challenged in the future. This may also include gun control. Any resistance or threat that is percieved can be swiftly dealt with using todays technology and surveillance. Dissenters can be found more easily than in the past dealt with. Heck an individual cant even drive from A to B in most places without being tracked in a number of ways, let alone any organised movement. Is this a conspiracy theory? Certainly governments and their representatives will label people who question these things as such, especially in recent times.

Another thing i do not see as a conspiracy theory is wealthy individuals and large corporations doing everything in their power to shut down or reduce privately run farming and food production. They have influence on government, hence government policy, which can be used to assist these corporations and wealthy individuals in their endeavours. They also control the retail end and many steps in between. I dont see it as CT because its all too real from where im standing, i see it unfolding on a number of levels.

I guess i think of EBE's , UFO's and so on as conspiracy theories perhaps.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 12:01 #4

Seeing the obvious is not seeing reality, needless to say reality is not obvious or easily comprehended, this gives rise to cloud cuckoo land speculation.

The visible obvious differs from person to person,, for me it's obvious looking at people's opinions whether they are a CT or not, but what's obvious to one is not obvious to another.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 12:07 #5

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diamondgeezer wrote:
crossing over into cloud cuckoo land where everything that happens is a conspiracy?

I do think there has been some effort in recent times by those in power to portray people who question events and/or their governments as kooks.

I find it interesting that CT is hitting the mainstream, as well as so many theories about recent events and so on....on one hand we have guys like Glenn Beck putting some of these things out there, and on the other we have the Rachel Maddows who appear to be sensible and remind us that the government is there to be our friend and nothing more perhaps.

Perhaps there are moves to poison the well, and then make fun of the people who go along with it.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 13:14 #6

That's true if by well you mean government and public institutions of democracy.

That's not to say I agree with everything just because it happens under the banner of democracy or politics, but it's more to highlight that CTers dismiss everything that goes on democratically or politically as standard, they go around filling in all the wells with propaganda and slogans like Left Vs Right is an Illusion etc, stp people from drinking from the wells or mocking those who do.

My position as you know is that there is seriously bad run off from the local private farm, they've been using chemical pesticides, and rotten meat which have got into the water table and are contaminating the well, so we need to completely revolutionize the lay of the land, the system of land ownership above ground, to make the well and the water in it fit for community drinking again.

That basically means revolutionary socialism.
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Last Edit: 09 Jun 2013 13:15 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 13:17 #7

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irrepressible wrote:
I think the line between seeing the obvious in what is going on and crossing into cloud cuckoo land is research.

How many people who are interested in conspiracy take the time to do some proper research? It's easier to look to conspiracy personalities, although they do encourage people to do their own research.

I agree this is important.

I also think there is a big straw man CTs persistently come up with - you either agree with them or you are mindless drone that loves the govt. CTs seem to often like to pretend there is no political critique that exists beyond their pronouncements.

Other factors include inconsistent standards of evidence, decontextualisation and excessive weighting of facts according to bias.

But research is a big one. Icke's books are shocking in the level of ignorance he displays of all kinds of subjects. But he does another thing CTs do a lot - using other CT material as his primary sources and not bothering to look at much else.

I think CTs are attractive as there is such a staggering volume of material on vast amounts of subjects it would take years to get even a reasonable grounding on one small part of it, CTs tend to paint with very broad brushstrokes to provide a comprehensive account of the history of the world in 200 pages. They give you an easily digested explanation for why you're pissed off.
Alternatively they give you that sense of wonder. If you're slogging away at a dead end job, it's kinda appealing to imagine you're privy to the 'suppressed info' (as seen on youtube) the sheeple just don't understand to make you feel special or it's kinda exciting to think the reality of aliens is just about to be revealed and change everything.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 13:34 #8

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
they go around filling in all the wells with propaganda and slogans like Left Vs Right is an Illusion etc,

Ive stated before that my position on this is, Left and right are indeed not the same, it is not an illusion.

But candidates presented for elections in modern times are a different story perhaps, they are presented as the left and the right, but are more similar than they are different.

As for revolutionising the lay of the land, well her maj is apparently the largest landowner on earth, but they are very protective of Crown land round these parts, especially when maj gives the go ahead for corps to be fracking for gas, so where do we start without ending up in a state sponsored cage. :think: :chuckle:
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 13:46 #9

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Chuck Random wrote:
I agree this is important.

I also think there is a big straw man CTs persistently come up with - you either agree with them or you are mindless drone that loves the govt. CTs seem to often like to pretend there is no political critique that exists beyond their pronouncements.

Other factors include inconsistent standards of evidence, decontextualisation and excessive weighting of facts according to bias.

But research is a big one. Icke's books are shocking in the level of ignorance he displays of all kinds of subjects. But he does another thing CTs do a lot - using other CT material as his primary sources and not bothering to look at much else.

I think CTs are attractive as there is such a staggering volume of material on vast amounts of subjects it would take years to get even a reasonable grounding on one small part of it, CTs tend to paint with very broad brushstrokes to provide a comprehensive account of the history of the world in 200 pages. They give you an easily digested explanation for why you're pissed off.
Alternatively they give you that sense of wonder. If you're slogging away at a dead end job, it's kinda appealing to imagine you're privy to the 'suppressed info' (as seen on youtube) the sheeple just don't understand to make you feel special or it's kinda exciting to think the reality of aliens is just about to be revealed and change everything.

Yeah, the conspiracy arena can often lack balance. A lot of things are blindly accepted as truth because they're plausible. It's important to remain discerning. There are conspiracy sheep, they're no different to the sheep masses they often slag off for being stupid unquestioning followers :chuckle: It can be easy to get swept up by a wave of "truth" though. Like Icke says "step back, have another look", the same goes for the stuff he and other conspiracy personalities talk about :chuckle:

Some of the new age stuff seems like attractively packaged hope, the evolution of consciousness doesn't seem very consistent with what I see in the streets in my neighbourhood :chuckle: I'm not saying it's not happening, that people aren't "waking up", but if they are, it seems to be happening a tad slowly.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 13:55 #10

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novum wrote:

But candidates presented for elections in modern times are a different story perhaps, they are presented as the left and the right, but are more similar than they are different.

:

I agree.

In the UK today all three big parties are right wing. Not that being left is inherently wonderful and a left wing major party would create milk and honey. But it might put the brakes on a bit.

But the left/right thing does all two often mask the right wing tendencies of a lot of CTists. Ale Jones is served far better by shouting "reject the left/right paradigm" than saying "Beneath the hysteria I am basically a common or garden right wing conservative who doesn't actually want to change a great deal". All this baloney you get about the Frankfurt school and Obama being a Marxist and wotnot shows the enormous right wing influence that pervades CT culture. Rubbing shoulders with a bunch of more typically left wing concerns.
It also shows a lack of sophistication because they're generally not interested in the bewilderingly complex history of political ideologies and relationships between them as opposed to the evil Empire and the forces of the Rebel Alliance.
It gets to this farcial situation where a staunch socialist like George Orwell is consistently cited by people spouting the kind of right wing pronouncements he spent his life fighting, to the extent of picking up a gun and fighting for socialism in Spain. He just didn't like the Stalinist brand of socialism.

This leads to another aspect not of CTs par se but the current scene - it's totally politically confused. As we all know, conspiracy forums play host to everyone from neo-Nazis to anarchist communists. It makes for an interesting and fun scene, but the notion it will ever provide some kind of political alternative is laughable. It's like expecting a political party formed by Hitler, Bakunin, Thatcher, Castro and Ghandi to get anywhere.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 14:05 #11

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irrepressible wrote:
Some of the new age stuff seems like attractively packaged hope, the evolution of consciousness doesn't seem very consistent with what I see in the streets in my neighbourhood :chuckle:

:thumbup:

People are still primordial, we are but another animal at the end of the day, doing whatever it can to survive and stay comfortable (some more than others).

Light and love doesnt dominate quite a number of peoples thoughts now does it, not where i come from anyway. :hahano:

The guys at the top of the food chain dont look much different to me either, they just tend to have their eyes on larger prizes.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 14:14 #12

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Chuck Random wrote:
This leads to another aspect not of CTs par se but the current scene - it's totally politically confused. As we all know, conspiracy forums play host to everyone from neo-Nazis to anarchist communists. It makes for an interesting and fun scene,

Of this, i am very aware. :hahano:

Chuck Random wrote:
but the notion it will ever provide some kind of political alternative is laughable. It's like expecting a political party formed by Hitler, Bakunin, Thatcher, Castro and Ghandi to get anywhere.

We could always give it a shot starting here at TZ :umm:

Its something i have dreamt about. :drevil:

But to be serious for a moment :hahano: there is some common ground. Beginning with being disenfranchised perhaps. Then looking at why, there is some overlap imo.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 16:13 #13

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A good topic with many good responses. I think the problem is that conspiracy theories are now based on "evidence" and "research" so if you question the conspiracy theory then you are, as has been said, ridiculed as either a blind slave or a paid supporter of the regime in question.

The question really is what evidence is reliable and actually proves a conspiracy. I think it is possible to find evidence that leads towards a conspiracy even when there is no actual conspiracy. Reading conspiracy forums gives you plenty of insight into this world. You might even find yourself saying "maybe Elvis didn't die" etc. But at the point where you abandon logic and accept the far fetched then I think you have crossed over perhaps. An outlandish conspiracy could be possible or even plausible on some levels but when you believe it without solid reasons and shout down opposing thoughts on it then I think you have gone full contard.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 16:56 #14

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novum wrote:
Chuck Random wrote:
This leads to another aspect not of CTs par se but the current scene - it's totally politically confused. As we all know, conspiracy forums play host to everyone from neo-Nazis to anarchist communists. It makes for an interesting and fun scene,

Of this, i am very aware. :hahano:

Chuck Random wrote:
but the notion it will ever provide some kind of political alternative is laughable. It's like expecting a political party formed by Hitler, Bakunin, Thatcher, Castro and Ghandi to get anywhere.

We could always give it a shot starting here at TZ :umm:

Its something i have dreamt about. :drevil:

But to be serious for a moment :hahano: there is some common ground. Beginning with being disenfranchised perhaps. Then looking at why, there is some overlap imo.

:D


I think the overlap is eternally doomed. Political groups or parties are notoriously split with divisions and infighting but still manage to adhere to a common goal (all three major parties are always full of internal squabbling, and little groups often argue and splinter). But they can unite around a core worldview.
Conspiracies work on what theories you believe, not on politics, morals or social goals. All Marxists want to overthrow capitalism - it doesn't really matter if they believe 911 was an inside job. All 911 truthers think 911 was an inside job - aside from that they're as disparate as it gets.
Though it does get into politics and proposed political solutions, conspiracism is at its core defined by what conspiracies you believe - somebody can be calling someone with an otherwise identical outlook a govt shill because they think the twin towers collapsed due to fire and damage, not explosives.
The debates can be very interesting, but conspiracists are doomed as a mass movement because they don't all believe the same thing and their gurus are generally politically unsophisticated and/or act like clowns.

Like I appreciate that many of the EDL are simply disenfranchised white working class. But I wouldn't do anything with the EDL in a million years. They stand for stuff I don't. Similarly I wouldn't pitch in with someone who believes Jews run the world or the Frankfurt School was a communist brainwashing operation because these views are underpinned by political beliefs I am opposed to.

Anarchists are defined by envisaging a society without a state. This spans the political spectrum from libertarian communists, to anarcho-capitalists to national anarchists who embrace a weird kind of nationalist anarchism and racism. A libertarian communist is more likely to share a platform with a Marxist than an anarcho-capitalist or national anarchist because their views are closer.

Similarly, a communist who believe 911 was an inside job should be more at home with a communist who doesn't think it was an inside job because their views are much closer and really that belief is trivial in the grand scheme. They should feel less at home with a fascist who thinks 911 was an inside job.
Conspiracism has an unhelpful tendency to create communities defined by belief in certain theories while herding together people who hold wildly differing views, but encouraging them to see everyone who doesn't share those conspiracy views as the enemy. Or worse, sucking them into some zany composite world where atheists start blindly believing fundamentalist Christian generated ideas about Satanic symbols in pop videos or whatever and left wing people start blindly believing stuff about one world government generated by right wing paranoia.

Just look at Charlie Veitch - I think he's a nob anyway, but that's not the point - all he did was change his mind on a conspiracy theory for God's sake - and people responded like left wing people would if Noam Chomsky joined the Republican Party. It demonstrates how the conspiracy community is very heavily preoccupied with what theories you believe regardless of your overall worldview.

If you look at the stuff you get on the DIF, you can trace loads of it back to politically charged memes a lot of which started kicked around decades ago in specific political contexts. Yet another point being conspiracists have a tendency to think their notions come from 'impartial research' when a lot of them are heavily dosed with political propaganda which has now been ripped from its context, repackaged and served back up for a 21st century internet audience. Conspiracists are often poor when it comes to history, but an area of history they're invariably spectacularly bad at is the history of conspiracy beliefs.
So inevitably places like the DIF turn out like a big party where the Nazis, Communists, Liberals, Conservatives and everyone else have all been invited. It all just ends up as a big mish-mash of ideas that internally encourages itself to get ever more crazy - because a final point is it then creates an enclosed world that sees the deluded sheeple outside as being in a different universe entirely where totally barmy notions end up seeming quite normal. And then they wonder why the outside world looks in and goes "LOL WUT?" - this reinforcing the notion of being a pioneering outsider and strengthening the us and them barrier.

That's kinda why I think conspiracism won't go anywhere.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 17:17 #15

Dismiss it at your peril, the last time conspiracy theories were popular was amongst Germans in 1930's Germany and Eastern Europe, anti Semitic sentiment growing out of the Russian Revolution, persecution of Marxists and Social Democrats, the assassination of Rosa Luxemburg and importation of propaganda like the Elders of Zion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Jew_%281940_film%29

Won't go anywhere good I'd say, but Alex Jones TV and Glenn Beck becoming a CTer show they aren't as limited as you'd expect such illogical, fearmongering individuals to be...curiouser and curiouser ;)
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 09 Jun 2013 18:48 #16

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Ultimate Seeker ™ wrote:
Dismiss it at your peril, the last time conspiracy theories were popular was amongst Germans in 1930's Germany and Eastern Europe, anti Semitic sentiment growing out of the Russian Revolution, persecution of Marxists and Social Democrats, the assassination of Rosa Luxemburg and importation of propaganda like the Elders of Zion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternal_Jew_%281940_film%29

Won't go anywhere good I'd say, but Alex Jones TV and Glenn Beck becoming a CTer show they aren't as limited as you'd expect such illogical, fearmongering individuals to be...curiouser and curiouser ;)

I think the modern Jewish conspiracy theory a manifestation of standard conspiracy theory in that it takes one specific group and tries to elevate them to a position of supreme power, scribing supernatural powers to one particular group who are somehow able to sustain a conspiratorial network capable of manipulating global affairs whilst simultaneously remaining invisible. The mechanisms by which this process occurs are, of course, eternally elusive. The Illuminati and the Masons are apparently shit hot at this secret global network thing too. It's most impressive for the Illuminati given they don't exist any more - controlling the world while not existing is no mean feat.

The Nazi Jewish conspiracy did present its own particular split character notion though; Jews are both highly intelligent, manipulative and operating at the highest levels with enormous wealth and simultaneously debase, squalid and live in filth.

The modern variant is interesting in that it fuses the old Jewish conspiracy and the modern Jewish conspiracy. Jews were originally just about tolerated due to their relationship with the Bible, but prone to being periodically accused of being in league with Satan. Whereas the modern theory tied together traditionalist repugnance with such horrors as lower class uppityness that led to the French revolution with the Jewish emancipation that arose as a consequence of the increasing influence of post Enlightenment idea. Thus Jews symbolised the dismay felt by the displaced traditionalists as the world entered the era of both emergent capitalism and new money and an increasingly unruly mob. First the guillotine, now that bloody Mr Cohen has opened a haberdashery. Surely hidden forces are responsible for this outrage? Now what you get is the Synagogue of Satan existing alongside the Jewish controlled media, with Israel that allows the policies of its govt (and its backer the US) to be elevated to be the defining feature of global affairs (the establishment of Israel was an absolute godsend for Jewish conspiracies) - thus Icke asks his flock to believe "Rothchild Zionism" is the defining feature of world affairs, as if the calls for some segments of the global Jewish population to establish a homeland somehow impacts on treatment towards the indigenous population of Chile and whatever else you care to name. Icke mimicked Willis Carto's tactic of framing the classic Jewish conspiracy in terms of Zionism and claiming he is not against Jewish people, apparently not realising being against Jewish people was the point of all this stuff in the first place. The worst bit being, he seems to know what he's doing. When Joel Stein published his tongue in cheek piece about Jews controlling media anti-semites went into convulsions over, Icke replicated this substituting "Zionist" for "Jew" against all the names cited. He said nothing whatsoever about the views of any of the individuals regarding Zionism. Let's face it - he didn't know what they believed regarding Zionism and didn't care.
Icke then slots the Jewish conspiracy theories he draws off alongside others about the Illuminati and whoever and puts lizards from outer space at the top of the pile.
Because some shadowy group controlling everything is what its really about.

This contrasts sharply with people as disparate as Marxists and Friedmanites who attempt to understand the world systematically. Stuff like ideological trends or economic relations are the key factors to most people - not the idea there's a hidden cabal of baby sacrificing reptiles from the moon, cackling hook-nosed Jews or guys with one trouser leg rolled up who somehow manage to control everybody simply for the sake of being evil. I think it is no coincidence science fiction films are so damn popular in the conspiracy world - in the old days people studied Enquiry Concerning Political Justice, Capital or Wealth of Nations - these days they put They Live, The Matrix or V For Vendetta in the DVD player and think it's real. After all, Alex Jones' notion everyone is going to be genocided then the remainder enslaved in grim super cities by the transhumanist elite because they can is better suited to a dystopian sci-fi straight to DVD release (maybe with a creaky Christopher Lambert in the starring role) than presenting some kind of serious analysis.

I mean, it really weirds me out how you get conspiracists parroting the views of the giant corporations they apparently hate so much when it comes to one genuine apocalyptic threat - that industry is rapidly screwing over the planet we all share at an alarming rate and only the rich will be able to ride it out by being rich enough to secure themselves - and chuckling smugly about global warming like it's all a bit silly. Then in the next breath they're claiming the elite are planning to turn themselves into some kind of Terminator robot people as they herd everyone into FEMA camps for no reason. Why? Because govts acknowledged global warming (then have done nothing meaningful about it) so it can't be true. Or maybe because The Day After Tomorrow was so truly dreadful they couldn't convince themselves it's real, I dunno.

Er sorry.

Got a bit carried away there with that reply... :bla: :aargh:
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 16 Jun 2013 13:58 #17

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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ?

A person who tries to convince me that Alibaba and his 19 muslim thieves did 911.
Or a person who claims that 6 million jews had been gassed.

These are conspiracy theorists who fail to see the conspiracy.
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please make my profile inactive, I no longer want to have any connection to this forum.

yet he is trolling further. :facepalm:

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the lice are only going to jump onto other typhus victim

Prime example of holocaustianity mental issues, clinically insane, and utterly ill informed, a danger to public health if this dude was working for CDC.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 16 Jun 2013 15:44 #18

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Oracle wrote:
What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ?

A person who tries to convince me that Alibaba and his 19 muslim thieves did 911.
Or a person who claims that 6 million jews had been gassed.

These are conspiracy theorists who fail to see the conspiracy.

I certainly agree anyone who said 6 million Jews were gassed would have to be some kind of conspiracy theorist, or at least have little understanding of what they were talking about.

During WWII 5-6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis with somewhere around the 2.5 - 3 million mark gassed (OTTOMH) and the rest mostly shot or else died from general privation - starvation, disease or whatever.

One of the features that defines the notion that this did not happen and can also be applied to the notion Islamic fundamentalists did not perpetrate 911 is the absence of any coherent alternative that incorporates all available evidence.

So take for example Auschwitz. Over a million Jews were sent there, many of which were never registered at the camp and subsequently vanished. Some Jews were sent on to other places and there are records for this, but most of them simply vanish. There is no plausible account for where all these Jews went if they weren't killed.
At the same time, the camp constructed crematoria capable of disposing of over 4000 bodies per day. What was this for? Well, surviving Jews, the Nazis and others (like Polish inmates) agree systemic mass murder was occurring. Given personal accounts contain inevitable misremembering, conflation, exaggeration etc, the exact details can be argued about endlessly. This is normal - regular people don't give perfect recollections of events. What's interesting is the way people who say it didn't happen basically just concoct a different story out of thin air. One that contradicts what people actually at the camp say happened. So it's basically just making something up and deciding it's true. Then conspiracy theories are formed as to why everyone said the opposite of what is wished to be believed. Because they inconveniently contradict the chosen belief.

It's a bit like saying the battle of Trafalgar didn't happen and the British, French and Spanish fleets were destroyed by hostile extraterrestrials. This was all covered up and that explains why there are contradictions in accounts of Nelson's death.
You can't physically prove the fleets weren't destroyed by aliens, but there seems to be little sense in deciding they did when everyone involved says there was a fierce battle that ended in a British victory.

Essentially suggesting a history nobody saw happening at the time must be true. Which is a pretty odd way to approach history.

These kinds of theories start of claiming there are 'holes in the official story' then progress to invent convoluted theories that are forced to hand-wave or dismiss all the inconvenient evidence that forms the original account. They then present a highly incoherent alternative that is at best based on speculation. This is why these theories struggle to get taken seriously by people very familiar with the subject matter. This then in term feeding the notion that the 'truth is being suppressed' when in reality it's seen as simply not having any merit.

It's the same with something like the collapse of WTC7 - the fact the collapse visually looked like a CD suddenly becomes explosives when there isn't any evidence of explosives, no evidence of any rigging, no sound of explosives, the back of the building was collapsing before the main facade which is nothing like a CD, the fire service clearly expected it to collapse and there's no sane motive to attempt such an arbitrary act anyway. So then people desperately try to figure out how it could potentially be destroyed by explosives, studiously ignoring the blatant fact the only reason to believe it was demolished in the first place is (carefully trimmed) footage looks like a demolition. so then people have to concoct theories using nothing but their imagination to account for all the stuff that points to it not being explosives or else spent hours trying to pick at the NIST report while forgetting they have nothing anywhere near as rigorous to offer in its place.

These are standard features that help define conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories.
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Last Edit: 16 Jun 2013 15:48 by Chuck Random.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 16 Jun 2013 16:06 #19

  • Oracle
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Chuck Random wrote:
Oracle wrote:
What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ?

A person who tries to convince me that Alibaba and his 19 muslim thieves did 911.
Or a person who claims that 6 million jews had been gassed.

These are conspiracy theorists who fail to see the conspiracy.

I certainly agree anyone who said 6 million Jews were gassed would have to be some kind of conspiracy theorist, or at least have little understanding of what they were talking about.

During WWII 5-6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis with somewhere around the 2.5 - 3 million mark gassed (OTTOMH) and the rest mostly shot or else died from general privation - starvation, disease or whatever.

One of the features that defines the notion that this did not happen and can also be applied to the notion Islamic fundamentalists did not perpetrate 911 is the absence of any coherent alternative that incorporates all available evidence.

So take for example Auschwitz. Over a million Jews were sent there, many of which were never registered at the camp and subsequently vanished. Some Jews were sent on to other places and there are records for this, but most of them simply vanish. There is no plausible account for where all these Jews went if they weren't killed.
At the same time, the camp constructed crematoria capable of disposing of over 4000 bodies per day. What was this for? Well, surviving Jews, the Nazis and others (like Polish inmates) agree systemic mass murder was occurring. Given personal accounts contain inevitable misremembering, conflation, exaggeration etc, the exact details can be argued about endlessly. This is normal - regular people don't give perfect recollections of events. What's interesting is the way people who say it didn't happen basically just concoct a different story out of thin air. One that contradicts what people actually at the camp say happened. So it's basically just making something up and deciding it's true. Then conspiracy theories are formed as to why everyone said the opposite of what is wished to be believed. Because they inconveniently contradict the chosen belief.

It's a bit like saying the battle of Trafalgar didn't happen and the British, French and Spanish fleets were destroyed by hostile extraterrestrials. This was all covered up and that explains why there are contradictions in accounts of Nelson's death.
You can't physically prove the fleets weren't destroyed by aliens, but there seems to be little sense in deciding they did when everyone involved says there was a fierce battle that ended in a British victory.

Essentially suggesting a history nobody saw happening at the time must be true. Which is a pretty odd way to approach history.

These kinds of theories start of claiming there are 'holes in the official story' then progress to invent convoluted theories that are forced to hand-wave or dismiss all the inconvenient evidence that forms the original account. They then present a highly incoherent alternative that is at best based on speculation. This is why these theories struggle to get taken seriously by people very familiar with the subject matter. This then in term feeding the notion that the 'truth is being suppressed' when in reality it's seen as simply not having any merit.

It's the same with something like the collapse of WTC7 - the fact the collapse visually looked like a CD suddenly becomes explosives when there isn't any evidence of explosives, no evidence of any rigging, no sound of explosives, the back of the building was collapsing before the main facade which is nothing like a CD, the fire service clearly expected it to collapse and there's no sane motive to attempt such an arbitrary act anyway. So then people desperately try to figure out how it could potentially be destroyed by explosives, studiously ignoring the blatant fact the only reason to believe it was demolished in the first place is (carefully trimmed) footage looks like a demolition. so then people have to concoct theories using nothing but their imagination to account for all the stuff that points to it not being explosives or else spent hours trying to pick at the NIST report while forgetting they have nothing anywhere near as rigorous to offer in its place.

These are standard features that help define conspiracy theories as conspiracy theories.

~60000 jews died during WWII, but not because of an "extermination policy", but due to Typhus epidemic. Many of them were convicted criminals, saboteurs and enemy collaborators.

All the rest you say is actually atrocity propaganda lies by jew Ilya Ehrenburg in cahoots with the British-jewish mafia.

Enough said, I don't plan to argue with a hoax believer.
The resident shill announced
blue_tackler wrote:
please make my profile inactive, I no longer want to have any connection to this forum.

yet he is trolling further. :facepalm:

blue_tackler wrote:
the lice are only going to jump onto other typhus victim

Prime example of holocaustianity mental issues, clinically insane, and utterly ill informed, a danger to public health if this dude was working for CDC.
Last Edit: 16 Jun 2013 16:12 by Oracle.
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What defines a person as a 'conspiracy theorist' ? 16 Jun 2013 16:39 #20

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Oracle wrote:

~60000 jews died during WWII, but not because of an "extermination policy", but due to Typhus epidemic. Many of them were convicted criminals, saboteurs and enemy collaborators.

Except there is simply no evidence for this. So at Auschwitz the surviving records (they are incomplete with gaps for some time periods) indicate typhus fatalities of around 3000. Basically less than a day's work for their astonishing cremation capacity. The sort of typhus epidemic you're suggesting here would be frankly apocalyptic. And it would be equally genocidal anyway - typhus thrives in cramped, unsanitary conditions. Anyone standing by and watching around a million people die of typhus in one place would be not much better than someone gassing them, surely? They'd also be very, very reckless - the Nazis generally took typhus very seriously indeed (despite creating conditions that led to outbreaks) - disease does not discriminate over who it infects.

It is also false to state "many of them were convicted criminals, saboteurs and enemy collaborators" - the Nazis rounded up and killed entire communities wholesale. How could an entire village - included young children - all be saboteurs?
All the rest you say is actually atrocity propaganda lies by jew Ilya Ehrenburg in cahoots with the British-jewish mafia.

Enough said, I don't plan to argue with a hoax believer.

????????

I'm sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

What has lya Ehrenburg got to do with contemporary understanding of the Holocaust and its development (which was a complicated affair)?
What is this "British/Jewish mafia"?
In fact, British propaganda played down the extermination of Jews. You'll notice that when the picture of Belsen came out, they weren't focusing on Jews specifically. The Holocaust as a specifically Jewish tragedy didn't really enter consciousness until the 1970s.
Same with the Soviets - the Soviets preferred a generic anti-fascism without highlighting Jews too much, though obviously Jewish people didn't necessarily agree with this. Hell, the Black Book was censored to this end to play down the focus on Jews

The actual events as we know about simply do not fit what you are saying.
Enough said, I don't plan to argue with a hoax believer.

Perhaps just as well - it is an argument you would lose.

I mean, you say "hoax" - what evidence is there of this "hoax"? A hoax takes planning and orchestration. In this case involving at least thousands of people dotted all round Europe. Where is the evidence for such a thing?
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Last Edit: 16 Jun 2013 16:42 by Chuck Random.
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