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TOPIC: Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy...

Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 27 Sep 2013 23:04 #1

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Well it's about that time ladies & gentleman.... :coffee:

Now that your here it's time we talk about why western society has not fallen under Anarchy if that's what people wan't.

We need to talk about the future of the Truth movement as David Icke's crew embark on a new journey in 2014...

Also what will happen to Sanctum Zone as indecision between Anarchy vs Authoritarianism manifest in the ranks?

There is still alot of humans out there who want to make the world a better place so it's time we get things cleared up.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 27 Sep 2013 23:38 #2

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:smith:
1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 27 Sep 2013 23:52 #3

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I'm done with professional conspiracy guru's right now.

No donation button here now either...it isn't something I want for TZ.... my decision.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 00:22 #4

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I think we are very far away from putting things right, because people it seems find it very hard to even identify problems, and even when they do they do it from a particular perspective, which of course is hard to translate into general terms. This means that often even if a problem is identified people from different positions cannot agree terms, or set parameters to what is or is not the problem.
One will say it looks big from over here, another will say it is small, or only the shadow of something else.
The two parties get frustrated, and there is a tendency to blame the other party, for the disagreement and loose sight of the problem.
We can then add to the above that some languages find it easier or harder to express some things rather than others, so the structure of the conversation itself can constrict the conversation.
Then we get that one person will try to get the other to accept their idea, but in doing so, will not fully take into account the others position. This soon feels like conflict, and in the conflict the two parties will become driven by the wish to predominate or win rather than seeing the interaction as a conversation or the exchange of ideas.
We can also add to the above a 'tribal identity' where people will identify themselves by the views they hold. As such they cannot accept that a thing maybe disproved, but they will still hold to it because it is how they identify themselves.

I don't see any making things better until we actually can see what they are.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 00:37 #5

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jonb that was an excellent post thank you for sharing that...

jonb wrote:
I don't see any making things better until we actually can see what they are.

Now this last line here, please tell me what your referring to?

If your just talking about being able to see what societies main problem is that easy to distinguish.

Just let me know and i would be happy to elaborate...
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 02:25 #6

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Take maths, the most basic form of logic, we know that every formula is built on an axiom. The problem is that we cannot prove the axiom from the formula. As such whatever we build is built on an assumption.
Some are right and some are wrong, most work for a bit and then fall apart.
The problem is though that people identify with their assumptions and even when they are shown to be wrong they would rather keep those old assumptions than look at the world with new eyes.

For instance the old model of how the planets moved round the sun was like an orrery of circles built on circles. When it was proposed planets moved in ellipses it made so much more sense and science could move forward. Now the funny thing is that the old model of circles in circles had been in use for a long time and had become very accurate, more accurate in fact than the new model of how the solar system works because it had not been worked on for any length of time and it was harder to make a physical model with. Now if the old model had not been discarded it would have damaged our ability to get a better understanding of the universe.

From at least Plato's time people have speculated about building a better society.
What is odd about all of these speculations is a common thread of a perfect unchanging society. They all have the same presumption that this society would be static unchanging it could in one go solve every problem for eternity. Now what if we do not as seems likely to me live in a static universe, but one in which needs will change, If we build a static society, one that does not adapt however nice it would seem to be in it at the beginning it would soon become very oppressive and eventually harmful..
The problem is most people looking at how a society should be constructed can be split into two opposing camps the right who say this is as good as every it would be tinker around the edges but have no vision for the future, or the left who envision a better society, but avoid practical day to day issues because once we get 'there', wherever that might be all will be solved.
Trapped in this left right antagonistic thinking I don't think we are going to make anything worthwhile and future generations will suffer.
I propose a different agenda that we think about a society which is structured for change to adapt and to grow, but it is not even possible to think about that because these sides are so locked into proving they are right and the other side is wrong, and not looking at alternatives or challenging assumptions.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 06:46 #7

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jonb wrote:
The problem is most people looking at how a society should be constructed can be split into two opposing camps the right who say this is as good as every it would be tinker around the edges but have no vision for the future, or the left who envision a better society, but avoid practical day to day issues because once we get 'there', wherever that might be all will be solved.
Trapped in this left right antagonistic thinking I don't think we are going to make anything worthwhile and future generations will suffer.
I propose a different agenda that we think about a society which is structured for change to adapt and to grow, but it is not even possible to think about that because these sides are so locked into proving they are right and the other side is wrong, and not looking at alternatives or challenging assumptions.

Jonb i can tell by your post you have an extremely intelligent mind. You have brought up the Left vs Right mindset and although it's true that i did vote for Obama i don't buy into any of it. I personally believe there is only one major problem in the world today. That problem is simply the hoarding of wealth which equals resources. That's all it comes down to and it's very simple when you really think about. As long as we live in a world where Monarchies and other multi-billion dollar families exist things can never ever be ok. I have no problem with athletes, entertainers and musicians having million dollar homes and hundred thousand dollar cars because they entertain society. Now what i do have a problem with is extreme wealth consolidation because it throws off the worlds balance of resources for the rest of the people on Earth. That's all it comes down to in the end.

www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

^ Like i said all the problems here on earth are all very simple and easily explained on the list in this link.

We can absolutely never have a good world or a fair society when that much wealth is consolidated into such a few people.

Now you can go on David Icke forum where people want to over-analyze stuff and make everything sound complex.

But all you have to do is take a look at that forbes billionaire list and all the worlds problems are easily explained.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 11:18 #8

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Yes the super rich are an impediment, but the thinking which creates them if not challenged will if they are removed, create just the same power structure. That is what happened to the Bolshevik revolution, Stalin became the new Tzar, and when that failed, and very few believed in ideals, they eventually got the present Tzar Putin, who is the Tzar because he holds all the power.
Culturally the Russians believe in the powerful leader, so whatever governmental structure is created, the culture will transform it into one of autocratic rule.
You might also look at Athenian or Spartan societies. Athens was a democracy, but the saw it as their right and the proper functioning of their society to exploit to the maximum every one else they could. Spartans were very much against allowing personal monetary wealth to become too uneven, and for a long time it seems managed to keep all Spartans within certain boundaries. However the exploitation of every one around them was worse than under many of the worst tyrants who were only interested in the attainment of personal wealth.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 12:25 #9

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Money is nothing more that a means of exchange between two parties for the production (work) supplied in the form of goods and/or service. The problem is the system of money control (or lack there of) which has been hijacked by the state. There is nothing stopping people from exchanging alternative units other than what the sate would have us believe is money. That list of billionaires is nonsense because anyone who is influential is well and truly hidden behind the curtain the ones that make it on those sorts of lists are just a smoke screen.

The relevant part is @42:20ish

I would say that regaining control of the legal system would be a great benefit because that's what political/corporate criminals hide behind, and use to justify their criminal practices etc. The bankers would be charge and convicted of their crimes. The police would be held accountable for their actions and inactions. Politicians would be hung for treason. Individuals would have access to real justice against the system which continually pillages and rapes them. If there is a functional legal system any wrong can be put right - which includes the abuse of the money supply and financial systems. As it stands now there is absolutely no legitimate process to challenge these parasites which is by design!

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 13:14 #10

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jonb wrote:
Yes the super rich are an impediment, but the thinking which creates them if not challenged will if they are removed, create just the same power structure. That is what happened to the Bolshevik revolution, Stalin became the new Tzar, and when that failed, and very few believed in ideals, they eventually got the present Tzar Putin, who is the Tzar because he holds all the power.
Culturally the Russians believe in the powerful leader, so whatever governmental structure is created, the culture will transform it into one of autocratic rule.
You might also look at Athenian or Spartan societies. Athens was a democracy, but the saw it as their right and the proper functioning of their society to exploit to the maximum every one else they could. Spartans were very much against allowing personal monetary wealth to become too uneven, and for a long time it seems managed to keep all Spartans within certain boundaries. However the exploitation of every one around them was worse than under many of the worst tyrants who were only interested in the attainment of personal wealth.

People only believe in government because they are condition to believe it's a benefit. The reality is Stateisum is no different to any religion which once and in some countries still is the power of government. I don't think many people would have trouble believing society could cope if there were no religions, so why do they need to believe in the fallacy of government?

The reason people seem to gravitate towards a figure head is because of a herd mentality much like a lead mare in a herd of horses. As the head of the herd she is the one they all watch and take instructions from in the event of danger. People look to a figure head for the same reason.

The thing is in animal herds the relationship is for mutual benefit even though the leader generally benefits with a priority in access to the best food. They only retain the position based on merit and if they don't perform they lose respect and get replaced by a worthy opponent. In the human herd there is no natural replacement process, because the leadership has built a structure around them to artificially retain power, regardless of how pathetic or disrespected they are, which makes it difficult for us to replace them with a worthy member of society.

Humans left to their own devices can cope with anarchy and we do all the time. Simply walking down a busy street or shopping at peek time in a busy store demonstrates that fact.

Here's an example where people believe in the power of authority in the form of traffic lights. Most people think turning the lights off will cause chaos when in actual fact it's the system of control which causes the daily turmoil. The state is no different to the traffic light scenario it's just much more difficult to turn the f**kers off.

We are our own worst enemy. Our natural instincts are used against us by people who understand group dynamics and human psychology.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 13:38 #11

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Yes
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 14:36 #12

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.......... wrote:
Well it's about that time ladies & gentleman.... :coffee:

Now that your here it's time we talk about why western society has not fallen under Anarchy if that's what people wan't.

We need to talk about the future of the Truth movement as David Icke's crew embark on a new journey in 2014...

Also what will happen to Sanctum Zone as indecision between Anarchy vs Authoritarianism manifest in the ranks?

There is still alot of humans out there who want to make the world a better place so it's time we get things cleared up.

The 'truth movement' is nothing more than an entertaining distraction and Sanctum Zone is just some internet forum. Neither are relevant to any meaningful drive to make the world a better place.
David Icke merits some study as an 'opiate for the masses', or at least a certain subset.
Like to know exactly how a big a subset though. I overhead some people talking about him on the fucking train yesterday. I felt tempted to interject and point out he's a fucking cunt, but decided I'd just come across as some nutter if I did.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 14:42 #13

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jonb wrote:
Yes the super rich are an impediment, but the thinking which creates them if not challenged will if they are removed, create just the same power structure. That is what happened to the Bolshevik revolution, Stalin became the new Tzar, and when that failed, and very few believed in ideals, they eventually got the present Tzar Putin, who is the Tzar because he holds all the power.
Culturally the Russians believe in the powerful leader, so whatever governmental structure is created, the culture will transform it into one of autocratic rule.

Though don't forget the Bolsheviks actively crushed those who wished to truly carry the revolution forward. They did not define its spirit but manouvered themselves into controlling it. I don't think it was about Russian mentality par es.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 15:33 #14

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Yes and no, I would not agree with Marx who proposed that a certain level of development was necessary before a society could move onto the next stage. and is often said to have been disparaging about the possibility of Russia becoming the sort of society he envisaged. On the other hand I think cultural attitudes are of far more importance than most others consider. In fact personally I think it outweighs all other factors. Government, legal and even economic systems seem to me little more than a distraction to a way forward.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 17:13 #15

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Chuck Random wrote:
I overhead some people talking about him on the fucking train yesterday. I felt tempted to interject and point out he's a fucking cunt, but decided I'd just come across as some nutter if I did.

:D
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 19:11 #16

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Frog wrote:
novum wrote:
I mean how do we get it to work without enforcers similar to police forces and so on, when many humans by nature, kill, stab, cheat and lie.

Sorry but that's a bat shit crazy alarmist premise, which is a total fallacy! If it were even remotely true life on the streets would be complete carnage every time anyone ventured out, which is quite simply not the case - even in the most fractured societies such as post war Iraq. Granted there lots of assassinations but there are plenty of people simply struggling to get through the day without incident.

The old guy in the interview @10:00 mins into this documentary sums up what human nature is like when it has developed free from the corruption of modern society. It's worth watching the whole doco imho.

This doco is also worth a viewing

Modern society has been totally corrupted by religion, stateisum, corrupt media and the indoctrination of state schooling. In that interview the guy makes the point that women and children aren't beaten etc. and there is a general sense of mutual respect given to members of their society. If you watch the videos it's also clear that these people have a deep respect for their entire environment. Something deeply lacking in a so called civilised modern society!

These videos also demonstrate that an anarchic state of existence within a human society is achievable and sustainable. A problem arises when you apply this philosophy to a modern society because we have been deliberately corrupted by false beliefs. The fundamental principles are no longer passed on through each generation. If people stopped beating their kids and forcing them into a corrupt indoctrinating education systems things would improve dramatically. In one generation people would be less violent and able to think critically for themselves.

Sorry for going off topic. I get the point you were actually making in your post, but that sentence is a bit of a red rag. :emb:

I'm going to take some time and think about the parts in bold with a clear mind.

Here is the right topic for this...imo, if not go ahead and delete this and i apologize Frog.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 28 Sep 2013 20:58 #17

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I don't mind where you discuss it although this may not be the ideal thread if it's a bit of a curve ball in here.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 28 Sep 2013 20:59 by Frog.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 29 Sep 2013 08:57 #18

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jonb wrote:
Yes and no, I would not agree with Marx who proposed that a certain level of development was necessary before a society could move onto the next stage. and is often said to have been disparaging about the possibility of Russia becoming the sort of society he envisaged. On the other hand I think cultural attitudes are of far more importance than most others consider. In fact personally I think it outweighs all other factors. Government, legal and even economic systems seem to me little more than a distraction to a way forward.

I think government, legal and economic systems largely define the culture by heavily influencing how people think and act. They become so deeply engrained they become invisible to us and difficult for people to conceptualise beyond.
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 29 Sep 2013 11:18 #19

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I know that is how things are told to us in the media, but is it true? think about it, are you really saying the only influence in society is top down? A few people at the top decide everything and then everybody goes along with it, in other words we are all automata? If that we true there could be no class struggle, no left wing. Your own antagonism to the powers in control is testament that just top down control is far from the full story.
If it was only about laws and economics, why would every government need to control the media to try to influence the culture?
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Sanctum Zone, David Icke Forum and the Truth about Authoritarian Anarchy... 29 Sep 2013 12:08 #20

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jonb wrote:
I know that is how things are told to us in the media, but is it true? think about it, are you really saying the only influence in society is top down? A few people at the top decide everything and then everybody goes along with it, in other words we are all automata? If that we true there could be no class struggle, no left wing. Your own antagonism to the powers in control is testament that just top down control is far from the full story.
If it was only about laws and economics, why would every government need to control the media to try to influence the culture?

Not the only influence but a large and very powerful one.
For example I think the very notion of class struggle is quite alien to the majority of the population right now. When it used to be much more commonplace. That didn't happen by accident.
I think many people are very antagonistic towards power, but lack the framework with which to articulate and express it. People will be angry about bankers crashing the economy while still saying the unemployed should 'make a contribution to society' (do most jobs really 'contribute to society'?).
One of the reasons I despise that fucking cunt Icke so much is that then egocentric hucksters compound the situation by funneling that malaise into ineffectual and intellectually redundant garbage that serves to provide a safe catharsis that will change nothing except the size of Icke's bank balance.
It's all gone so very far. The alternatives are there, but they seem so very small and distant.
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