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TOPIC: spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster

spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 17:14 #1

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I know some of you have kids or you were kids once. Just curious to know how people feel about discipline of children? I do not hit my kids, at least I try not to discipline that way. I don't think it works and it sends the wrong message. I would go so far as to blame wars etc on that kind of mentality. You hit these people we hit you kind of thing.

Are there times when hitting a child is acceptable or necessary?
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 17:21 #2

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I never hit my girl (she's 14 now and as big as me, so it's probably not a good idea to start hitting her, either). I don't believe violence teaches anything. It's belittling and just unpleasant. I wouldn't agree to let anyone in my life get me to do what they said or wanted by slapping or thumping me - I'd call that Domestic Violence and leave the busterd. I think hitting a child is the same thing and if it teaches them anything at all it's that they are a victim of an adult if or when the adult says so.
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


:cavalier
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 17:23 #3

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A lot of people tend to say "never did me any harm", and I don't think it did do me any harm, then again it didn't happen very often really if my memory serves, I was generally a well behaved child :angel:
A child doesn't have fully developed reasoning ability, so a short sharp shock, as well as an explaination for the smack when they do something naughty or dangerous might be the way to go so they remember and it sinks in kind of thing.
I'm not a parent.
Discipline is different to a parent lashing out because they can't cope. Some parents are too quick with the hand, using it as a short cut, and that is wrong.

I'd like to hear from the parents about this.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 17:23 #4

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Maybe this will help your thread.

2:19 - What are the scientifically verifiable effects of child abuse?

13:24 - Is violent behavior genetic?

17:00 - Are you optimistic that peaceful parenting will gradually replace irrational and abusive forms of child-rearing?

21:44 - Is it emotionally healthy to be angry at people who have abused you? Can forgiveness be willed?

28:29 - The relief that can be found in the common occurrence of child abuse...

29:32 - What does the solution look like? What is peaceful parenting?

37:17 - What would the world look like if children were raised peacefully?

Stefan Molyneux, host of Freedomain Radio speaks with James Corbett of the Corbett Report on the effects of childhood abuse, peaceful parenting and what the world would look like if children were raised without violence

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 06 Oct 2013 17:26 by Frog.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 17:32 #5

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I have lost my temper before. I don't really hit my son but I have gone too far before. I am not proud of it. It is one of those things that sounds simple but kids can push buttons and drive you crazy. I have really had to learn a calm response to a screaming child. It is not easy but I know when my son is tired and or hungry he is a demon and if I shout at him then he gets worse. If I respond calmly he responds better. If we are both tired and/ or hungry it is tough because he takes after his dad in many ways.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 18:12 #6

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irrepressible wrote:
A lot of people tend to say "never did me any harm", and I don't think it did do me any harm, then again it didn't happen very often really if my memory serves, I was generally a well behaved child :angel:
A child doesn't have fully developed reasoning ability, so a short sharp shock, as well as an explaination for the smack when they do something naughty or dangerous might be the way to go so they remember and it sinks in kind of thing.
I'm not a parent.
Discipline is different to a parent lashing out because they can't cope. Some parents are too quick with the hand, using it as a short cut, and that is wrong.

I'd like to hear from the parents about this.

I would have to disagree with your assertion that a child doesn't have good reasoning abilities. I would say that a child has extremely good reasoning skills and that is pretty much their sole function in their development and one which should never stop developing whatever age you are.

When a child asks "if there is a god why does he allow so much bad stuff to happen?" they are applying sound logic and reason to the question. Often the adults will feed them some BS about the benevolent god giving humans the power of self determination or similar nonsense. That's just one example which sprang to mind. No wonder children get so screwed up and their reasoning abilities are knocked out of them!

Violence or smacking as it is generally known to disassociate it from its real meaning (violence) is often a child's first experience of hypocrisy. What I mean by that is that the parent tells a child that it's wrong to hit a sibling or other children and then the violent parent proceeds to beat their child for hitting someone else or as punishment for some other behaviour. See the contradiction? And that's a big influence on a developing mind which is trying to reason!

The other seriously negative impact of beating a child is the way it conditions them to accept violence as an authoritative form of reasoning, when in fact it demonstrates a total absence of any form of reasoning. This is a fundamental factor in the way we as adults perceive and accept authority from people and organisations which have no real authority. Children then go to a State school where this learnt contradictory behaviour is enforced further, and the child is taught not to question the teacher (authority) even if what the teacher is saying is wrong. Beating is replaced by other punitive methods these days, but the effect of the punishment is the same. When they leave school the State capitalises on this, and for the rest of their lives the state extracts their hard earned cash or imposes its will based on violence or the threat of violence to gain their compliance.

Beating children instead of reasoning with them is a major problem in our society and it perpetuates many of the most harmful aspects of it.

The old guy in the interview @10:00 mins into this documentary sums up what human nature is like when it has developed free from the corruption of modern society and child beating. These so called uncivilised people appear to be far more civilised towards each other and their environment than the so called modern civilised world we live in. It's worth watching the whole doco imho.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 06 Oct 2013 19:38 by Frog.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 19:13 #7

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Children can surprise you but they do have to learn things such as don't throw toys at your siblings etc. Of course you can't teach hitting is wrong by hitting. When my two year old hits her older brother or myself I say "NO" in a stern voice. She then hangs her head and pouts because she knows she got in trouble. My son on the other hand is 5 and he will often scream at me or run to his room and lock his door to avoid being told off. So sometimes I shout at him to unlock the door which he usually does straight away but he has been known to laugh in defiance and sometimes makes parenting very tough. If you watch super nanny you can often see parents struggling and often you might think "what terrible parents" but it is difficult especially if you never had a better example.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 19:30 #8

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I don't watch TV and if I did I seriously doubt super nanny would be on my watch list.

If you're going through a tough patch parenting or you're just looking for alternative strategies, I think you would find some interesting thoughts on Stefan Molyneux's Ytube channel or his philosophy site http://www.freedomainradio.com where parenting and the effects on children and society are regular topics. He often cites other resources such as bloggers, web communities, books and scientific research on the subject.

EDIT: That's not aimed at you directly I-baster it's intended to be general in scope.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 06 Oct 2013 21:07 by Frog.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 21:33 #9

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Is violence a fact of life? All throughout nature?



Nature is violent. Even plants can be violent.

And is there not a difference between a smack on the hand and being beaten up?

Just because we wear clothes and have a certain degree of reasoning ability doesn't mean we're not animals.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 22:40 #10

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Viewing that event in isolation with no knowledge of what has caused that eruption isn't really a true depiction of animal behaviour IMHO. For one thing they are in an artificial environment which must be distressing to them even if outwardly they seem accepting of it. The condition of one of the chips also looks very poor and hair loss can often indicate stress in an animal or human come to that.

I'm not sure how that relates to violence to wards human children or chimp infants come to that.

We are animals, but we have the ability to reason and we also have a wider social awareness. We also have the ability to correlate past actions with the present results, plus we can predict outcomes based on collective data and studies. So that would seem to give us certain advantages over wild animals. Regardless of that the remote tribe in the video above demonstrates that our natural behaviour is not to commit violence as a corrective measure.

That doesn't mean we do not have the capacity to be violent or there are never situations where violence may be the only option in a threat or hunting situation for example. That doesn't translate to abandoning reason and beating infants of others who are not a direct threat or being violent towards you.

Like the chimps in your example many humans live in an artificial environment and that would account for many violent situations within our society. Lots of people live with stresses of various types and from various causes but the overwhelming majority aren't overtly violent. Statistically speaking people who have been beaten as a child will display a greater propensity for violence at the expense of reason. So not beating children would lead to a less violent society when they reach adulthood,. The likely hood is they will not feel the need to beat their own children resulting in a less violent society as the cycle of learned violent behaviour is broken.

If mindless violence is so dominant across species as you seem to be claiming maybe you could explain the absence of violent reactions in the clips below...
Jump to 2:35 in the clip above to see the point of including it.
Did you notice how the big male guides the infant away? Many human parents would be screaming and dragging the child away from a similar situation and probably beat them for doing it once clear of the immediate threat. Maybe we aren't as highly evolved as we think maybe we perceive dangers because of preconditioned responses.
Even when protecting territory the gorilla is posturing not violent.
When watching this clip try and remember the emotions you experience and retain - then see if that fits with how you feel watching the same event in the last clip with different news commentary.


Compassion from a wild animal surely not?


If you listen to news coverage of similar events the language used creates expectations of fear, creates drama and tension even when they know the conclusion of the events do not support the script they are reading. Below is an example relating to the second clip in this post jump to 1:05 and keep watching and listen to the news commentary. Reporting like that instils preconceptions in the subconscious even though the images do not. That's how mind control and the use of language and media works, to control our responses to things even before we have experienced something personally, that's why people react to things without reasoning what they are experiencing as it happens.


"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 06 Oct 2013 23:26 by Frog.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 23:10 #11

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Is smacking a child on the wrist the same as beating a child? Is everyone who has smacked a child on the hand, wrist, or bottom a child beater?
Is calling people names in anger a form of violence? We've all done it.

I'm not saying we're all mindless savages, but it is there, inside us. And it can come out quickly and easily in certain circumstances.

The last time I hit someone, I was around 12 years old or thereabouts. I was smacked as a child on more than one occasion.

I think there is a big difference between smacking a child and going to town on a child and beating the shit out of them.

We are capable of great compassion, but also capable of the most horrific violence. Our species is always at war.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 23:15 #12

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Smacking a child on the hand, and aiming a 12 bore shotgun at one are two massively different things imho. A person who aims a shotgun at his wife and child would have a slightly different personality to a mum or dad who smacks little Timmy on the wrist because he was playing with matches.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 23:31 #13

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I just find it a bit odd that smacking a child on the hand or bum has been lumped in with child beating. I was smacked as a child, in most cases I was being a bit of a little shit. My mum, she was beaten, punched black and blue for nothing. I think there's a difference.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 23:46 #14

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There is of course a cultural aspect to this, where cultures which have a loud demonstrations of love and upset within the family are more likely to have more physical interaction both positive and negative. So what might be appropriate in Italy would not be in Sweden and vis-versa. Coming from my background I am very uncomfortable with physical punishment.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 06 Oct 2013 23:48 #15

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irrepressible wrote:
I just find it a bit odd that smacking a child on the hand or bum has been lumped in with child beating. I was smacked as a child, in most cases I was being a bit of a little shit. My mum, she was beaten, punched black and blue for nothing. I think there's a difference.

Well there is an example of the power of language and the perceptions it gives us.

Beating = Violence people get that and envisage a child receiving a hammering. We aren't even talking about a real event but your mind is made up.

Smacking = Violence people perceive a tap on the wrist (still violence) and no harm done. Again this is an imaginary event but opinions are formed. Using the word smacked is a metal exercise in removing the reality of the act which is being performed. Granted there is a difference in degree expressed/imagined but the act remains the same.

Raising a voice and balling at a child is indicating a possible act of physical violence could follow and mentally it's perceived as violence. It is mental/emotional violence regardless.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 06 Oct 2013 23:49 by Frog.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 00:13 #16

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Me being smacked on the arse was not an imaginary event, nor was my mum being beaten black and blue, given black eyes for no reason an imaginary event either. They are not the same thing.

I'm not advocating violence against children. I'm not even a parent.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 00:16 #17

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jonb wrote:
There is of course a cultural aspect to this, where cultures which have a loud demonstrations of love and upset within the family are more likely to have more physical interaction both positive and negative. So what might be appropriate in Italy would not be in Sweden and vis-versa. Coming from my background I am very uncomfortable with physical punishment.

But have you ever given it, or received it?
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 00:39 #18

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irrepressible wrote:
Me being smacked on the arse was not an imaginary event, nor was my mum being beaten black and blue, given black eyes for no reason an imaginary event either. They are not the same thing.

I'm not advocating violence against children. I'm not even a parent.

In the context of this thread it's hypothetical/imaginary was I referring to a specific act of a child being beaten did I indicate how sever the violence was? I don't think so. ;) Such is language and the way we chose to interpret what we read based on our experiences or perceptions.

An no there is no difference the act remains the same the degree is what you're referring to as the difference, which is not the same thing. It means one act of violence is not as brutal as another but they are still both violent acts. Someone's reference to beating a child could be considered a smack by another.

In the eyes of the law if you were to grab my shirt that would be considered an assault/violence, even though no smack or beating has occurred. The reason is because it's a physical violation of a person and mentally it is perceived as violence or the threat of it escalating to physical violence.

Does a smack involve physical contact with another? Is the intent behind a smack an effort to impose your will or disapproval on another? Does a smack leave the recipient feeling warm and fuzzy inside?

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 00:40 #19

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It's an interesting topic anyway, I'd like to read the opinions of a wider range of parents.

I just ask questions really.

Are humans inherently violent but learn peaceful ways? Or are humans inherently peaceful but learn violent ways?
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 00:45 #20

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Frog wrote:
In the context of this thread it's hypothetical/imaginary was I referring to a specific act of a child being beaten did I indicate how sever the violence was? I don't think so. ;) Such is language and the way we chose to interpret what we read based on our experiences or perceptions.

An no there is no difference the act remains the same the degree is what you're referring to as the difference, which is not the same thing. It means one act of violence is not as brutal as another but they are still both violent acts. Someone's reference to beating a child could be considered a smack by another.

In the eyes of the law if you were to grab my shirt that would be considered an assault/violence, even though no smack or beating has occurred. The reason is because it's a physical violation of a person and mentally it is perceived as violence or the threat of it escalating to physical violence.

Does a smack involve physical contact with another? Is the intent behind a smack an effort to impose your will or disapproval on another? Does a smack leave the recipient feeling warm and fuzzy inside?

No, but I never drew on the wall again, or set fire to the carpet... actually I can't remember what exactly I did, but it wasn't good :D

I actually detest violence you know. I don't use it, I don't like to see it. It doesn't make me feel good.
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