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TOPIC: spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster

spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 00:57 #21

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Smacking does children no harm if they feel loved, study claims

Being a strict mother can be good for children as long as the discipline is tempered with a little love and affection, the researchers claim.
But parenting groups and charities have reacted angrily to the findings, maintaining that a child can suffer long term damage from physical discipline.
The study of teenagers, published in the journal Parenting: Science and Practice, found the painful effects of harsh discipline - such as verbal threats or spanking - are offset by the child's feeling of being loved.
The researchers said being punished is unlikely to result in antisocial behaviour further down the line, as long as the child believes their punishment is coming from “a good place”.
Smacking is controversial and has been found to carry a greater risk of manifesting aggression, delinquency and hyperactivity - but authors claims this can be moderated.
In Britain parents are not explicitly banned from smacking their children, but under the current law it is illegal to inflict injuries causing more than a temporary reddening of the skin.
The research will fuel the debate and the parental concern over the best way of bringing up children.
Jeremy Todd, chief executive of charity Family Lives said: “We would never endorse smacking as we feel that there are much better ways to communicate with a child.
“Parents who contact us say that smacking comes as a reaction, it is not a controlled moment. They often speak of their regrets; it is not something they feel good about. We would not support the research.”
The team from the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York studied a group of Mexican-American adolescents and found having a loving mother - or the “perception of maternal warmth” - protected against antisocial behaviour.
The perception resulted in a positive relationship between harsh discipline and the way they way that the child dealt with problems in later life.
Dr Miguelina German, lead author, explained “attachment theory” holds that warm, responsive parenting is the critical factor in producing happy, secure children.
The underlying belief that their parents love them protects against feelings of rejection, even when being harshly disciplined, she said, and the discipline it does not automatically result in antisocial behaviour.
"The relationship between the two is conditional and subject to other factors,” she said, noting that restrictive disciples are the cultural norm in Latino culture.
“There are always other influences at play that can lessen their potential harm on the young child.”
However, a spokesperson for the NSPCC who have campaigned for the practice to be illegal, said: “Smacking is not an effective form of punishment and undermines the trusting relationship between a child and their carer.
“And it just teaches children to be violent. Young people tell us smacking leaves them feeling upset but often doesn’t deter them from doing what they were smacked for. We want to help parents use other more constructive methods to teach their children the difference between right and wrong.”
Previous research has found children are more likely to grow into well adjusted adults if their parents are firm disciplinarians.
Traditional “authoritative” parenting, combining high expectations of behaviour with warmth and sensitivity, leads to more “competent” children, according to the 2009 study by researchers from London's Institute of Education.
Justine Roberts, Mumsnet Founder, said: "Obviously smacking 'from a good place' is preferable to smacking 'from a bad place' but broadly Mumsnet users believe it's better not to use violence not least because it feels hypocritical to tell children one thing about hitting others, yet practice another."

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Last Edit: 07 Oct 2013 00:58 by irrepressible.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 01:05 #22

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irrepressible wrote:
jonb wrote:
There is of course a cultural aspect to this, where cultures which have a loud demonstrations of love and upset within the family are more likely to have more physical interaction both positive and negative. So what might be appropriate in Italy would not be in Sweden and vis-versa. Coming from my background I am very uncomfortable with physical punishment.

But have you ever given it, or received it?
In the sense you are talking about no, which is unusual for a boy of my generation who went to the schools I did. But as a boy I was involved in fights, which is in essence about getting your way with physicality, and I have told a story on this forum about an event that happened to me as a teenager, where men punished me for what they thought was me overstepping the mark.
And there have been a few occasions where I have given a piece of my mind to a man hitting a dog, which more than once have nearly came to blows.
So when I say I am comfortable with it, I do not like it, but I am not a pacifist.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 02:01 #23

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@Irre,

I could sit here all night posting research and psychoanalysis reports to support the fact that violence breeds violence but I have already added some links to resources which will do that if anyone is actually interested.

You either get it or you don't.

@jonb,

I'm not a pacifist either if someone sticks their face in mine I'm more than willing to bite theirs off if reasoning clearly isn't an option. I wouldn't do that to a child though. I'm not inferring that you would by the way.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 02:18 #24

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irrepressible wrote:
It's an interesting topic anyway, I'd like to read the opinions of a wider range of parents.

I just ask questions really.

Are humans inherently violent but learn peaceful ways? Or are humans inherently peaceful but learn violent ways?

I would say that the majority of violent parents suffered violence as a child and consider it normal. On the other hand a number of parents who experience extreme violence and mental abuse as a child go to extremes to avoid inflicting the same thing on their own children, as they know how damaging it is and how it feels.

Using the term smacking helps normalise a violent act and make it seem acceptable. Which is the point I have tried to explain already without success it would appear. :emb: An act of violence is an act of violence the level of degree does nothing to change that fact.

If it's necessary to smack a child for drawing on the wall to express disapproval then I think that suggests that there is a serious breakdown in communication. The adult should be able to express themselves and reason with a child in order to make a point rather than whacking them.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 02:55 #25

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There is a difference between a smack as in discipline and a beating for starters , all animals in the animal kingdom reprimand there young
even humans have too, if you can't control your child at the age of four,you will not have any control your child at the age of fourteen
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 03:19 #26

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Black Cloud wrote:
There is a difference between a smack as in discipline and a beating for starters , all animals in the animal kingdom reprimand there young
even humans have too, if you can't control your child at the age of four,you will not have any control your child at the age of fourteen

This might seem totally semantic, but I think attitudes and motives are incredibly important. I have never wanted to control my children, my wife and I have only tried to teach them how to control themselves.
Personally I reject cultures which teach deference, because my family history has been about creativity for a good number of generations, and I think it is fare to say my extended family place a lot of values around independent thinking irreverence, and an ability to negotiate conflict while seeming that butter would not melt in our mouths.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 03:29 #27

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jonb wrote:
Black Cloud wrote:
There is a difference between a smack as in discipline and a beating for starters , all animals in the animal kingdom reprimand there young
even humans have too, if you can't control your child at the age of four,you will not have any control your child at the age of fourteen

This might seem totally semantic, but I think attitudes and motives are incredibly important. I have never wanted to control my children, my wife and I have only tried to teach them how to control themselves.
Personally I reject cultures which teach deference, because my family history has been about creativity for a good number of generations, and I think it is fare to say my extended family place a lot of values around independent thinking irreverence, and an ability to negotiate conflict while seeming that butter would not melt in our mouths.

I meant as in control your child so no right from wrong aren't unruly then when they get older they are not misdiagnosed with ADHD and other illnesses and pumped up on pharmaceutical drugs that's all
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 03:38 #28

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Black Cloud wrote:
jonb wrote:
Black Cloud wrote:
There is a difference between a smack as in discipline and a beating for starters , all animals in the animal kingdom reprimand there young
even humans have too, if you can't control your child at the age of four,you will not have any control your child at the age of fourteen

This might seem totally semantic, but I think attitudes and motives are incredibly important. I have never wanted to control my children, my wife and I have only tried to teach them how to control themselves.
Personally I reject cultures which teach deference, because my family history has been about creativity for a good number of generations, and I think it is fare to say my extended family place a lot of values around independent thinking irreverence, and an ability to negotiate conflict while seeming that butter would not melt in our mouths.

I meant as in control your child so no right from wrong aren't unruly then when they get older they are not misdiagnosed with ADHD and other illnesses and pumped up on pharmaceutical drugs that's all

You're also teaching them that violence against someone or received at the hands of another/authority is an acceptable method to achieve compliance, and that they should do the same to their children and so the cycle of violence continues.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 04:37 #29

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Frog wrote:
Black Cloud wrote:
jonb wrote:
Black Cloud wrote:
There is a difference between a smack as in discipline and a beating for starters , all animals in the animal kingdom reprimand there young
even humans have too, if you can't control your child at the age of four,you will not have any control your child at the age of fourteen

This might seem totally semantic, but I think attitudes and motives are incredibly important. I have never wanted to control my children, my wife and I have only tried to teach them how to control themselves.
Personally I reject cultures which teach deference, because my family history has been about creativity for a good number of generations, and I think it is fare to say my extended family place a lot of values around independent thinking irreverence, and an ability to negotiate conflict while seeming that butter would not melt in our mouths.

I meant as in control your child so no right from wrong aren't unruly then when they get older they are not misdiagnosed with ADHD and other illnesses and pumped up on pharmaceutical drugs that's all

You're also teaching them that violence against someone or received at the hands of another/authority is an acceptable method to achieve compliance, and that they should do the same to their children and so the cycle of violence continues.

no i ain't, i never said that or meant it
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 06:29 #30

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I had a very unpleasant thing happen yesterday. I was out on the main road, on the way back from the off licence and there was this woman slapping her little girl, hard, screaming etc. I intervened in a way, told her to stop it, and she fucking hit me, punched me in the neck.

Then I just walked away. My neck is sore as fuck and I feel like a coward. :(
The pen is mightier than the sword
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 06:47 #31

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Black Cloud wrote:
Frog wrote:
Black Cloud wrote:
jonb wrote:
Black Cloud wrote:
There is a difference between a smack as in discipline and a beating for starters , all animals in the animal kingdom reprimand there young
even humans have too, if you can't control your child at the age of four,you will not have any control your child at the age of fourteen

This might seem totally semantic, but I think attitudes and motives are incredibly important. I have never wanted to control my children, my wife and I have only tried to teach them how to control themselves.
Personally I reject cultures which teach deference, because my family history has been about creativity for a good number of generations, and I think it is fare to say my extended family place a lot of values around independent thinking irreverence, and an ability to negotiate conflict while seeming that butter would not melt in our mouths.

I meant as in control your child so no right from wrong aren't unruly then when they get older they are not misdiagnosed with ADHD and other illnesses and pumped up on pharmaceutical drugs that's all

You're also teaching them that violence against someone or received at the hands of another/authority is an acceptable method to achieve compliance, and that they should do the same to their children and so the cycle of violence continues.

no i ain't, i never said that or meant it

I thought you were endorsing smacking/violence as a method of controlling a child through the use of violence, in order to get them to comply with a persons wishes or accept that violence is acceptable at the hands of another person, in order to get them to accept their authority.

As for ADHD many of the children diagnosed/labelled with an ADHD condition do not suffer from an illness they suffer from and active and enquiring mind, which the system fails to stimulate. Schools are not trying to stimulate the minds of students and the methods and material used does nothing to encourage children to question and examine a topic. Schools and the State want human units which are easy to program and do not question the system. Any child that doesn't comply with that is considered to be deficient in some way. When the only deficiency is the requirements of the state.

Then there are the children that do suffer from a condition which gets chalked up as ADHD/Autism. These are the children who have reacted to chemicals administered via the State vaccine programs. There are people researching this subject and they are drawing comparisons with the Delta's in A Brave New World. There suspicions seem to be that there is a state program to produce worker units who will accept mundane and repetitive tasks unquestioningly. They are making the claim that the steady rise in Autism cases diagnosed are as a result of improvements in the effectiveness of the vaccinations and side effects in certain groups.

The issue of state produced Delta's is discussed in this interview with Dr Rima Laibow, M.D...


I don't think smacking a children would prevent ADHD from being noticed, but I guess it may knock the stuffing out of a child with an active mind.

Animals do not have vocal communication in the form of spoken language or the ability to reason (at least not that we understand) so the methods of educating and protecting their young from danger are limited. Animals don't tend to do damage to their young when displaying the behaviour you're referring to, and young animals won't be trying to rationalise their treatment, and discover contradictions. Most animals to my knowledge use corrective behaviours to prevent an escalation in violence with in their groups, which normally have a very well defined pecking order which needs to be established. Once that's done violence is not very common unless a leadership position is being challenged. I think animal and human dynamics are some what different and it's not an apples to apple comparison. The isolated tribe video earlier in this thread also seems to suggest that smacking children isn't something which is a natural trait within human groups. As jonb said there maybe a cultural element at play. Most if not all western states employ violence or threats of it against the population so maybe that's a factor?


Equine Mare and Foul


Wolf pack dynamics


This documentary gives an in depth look at wolf pack dynamics "Living with Wolves" There is some good cub interaction at 53:00 as they join the pack.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
Last Edit: 07 Oct 2013 06:54 by Frog.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 07:03 #32

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diamondgeezer wrote:
I had a very unpleasant thing happen yesterday. I was out on the main road, on the way back from the off licence and there was this woman slapping her little girl, hard, screaming etc. I intervened in a way, told her to stop it, and she fucking hit me, punched me in the neck.

Then I just walked away. My neck is sore as fuck and I feel like a coward. :(

And after witnessing that the child will feel vulnerable as society offers little protection from the mothers violence, and later in life may draw on the experience and very likely use violence to resolve issues.

In that situation I doubt many people would have even tried to intervene. And if it was as bad as you seem to be suggesting the mother was committing a crime.

"Whenever you're in conflict with someone, there is one factor that can make the difference between damaging your relationship and deepening it. That factor is attitude." William James
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 07:41 #33

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It was bad & I feel shit about it, how I handled it, or not.
The pen is mightier than the sword
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 07:50 #34

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diamondgeezer wrote:
It was bad & I feel shit about it, how I handled it, or not.

You mustn't feel bad, DG. You did nothing wrong. She's the criminal not you. And if she can so readily belt a grown man and cause him to be actually sore, what the hell is she doing in charge of a little kiddie? That's terrible. At least you've let her know there are people noticing how she's behaving toward her child, and that someone just might tell her to give it over every now and then - I hope it's someone who can have her arrested and charged with her crimes against her own child.

Bitch.

And poor little girl. If you can't be safe with your own mother, who on earth can you be safe with?

You dun gud, DG. It wasn't like you were going to smack her one back, especially not in front of her child (a fact she probably relied on).
"...Wyrde saves oft the man undoomed
if he undaunted be....". (Beowulf).

"The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths... Beautiful people do not just happen". (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross).


:cavalier
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 09:35 #35

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And yet again there is a difference between smacking and beatings, plain and simple,
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 11:51 #36

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DG think about queuing, there is no police force that forces people to queue, no law that enforces it, if you push in all that happens often is a mild tutting, yet the queue is natural in Britain and even with the high level of immigration in London from places that do not queue it is still a feature of life.
So what were you going to do, have a stand up fight with a woman in the street? Yet you registered your discontent with her action, and she had so little answer for it she had to turn to violence. I can tell you your action has had an effect she will be far less likely to do the same action again.
People hate being corrected by strangers even in the most mild way, and will do anything to avoid it. Most teenagers go through a stage of pushing the boundaries of loving anti social behaviour, but even though they seem to have a natural programme to do this it only lasts a few years and they quickly adopt the morality of the culture they are living in, often this is enforced by nothing more than a few old ladies shaking their fingers.
No DG you did it right, the only complaint I have is that the number of people prepared to take a slap as you did for saying what is right seems to be getting less.
Where are the grown ups in our society?
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 14:09 #37

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Frog wrote:
Using the term smacking helps normalise a violent act and make it seem acceptable. Which is the point I have tried to explain already without success it would appear. :emb: An act of violence is an act of violence the level of degree does nothing to change that fact.

What's the :emb: for Frog? Were you being light heartedly self deprecating, feeling that you haven't quite got the intellect or a firm enough grasp of the English language to be able to properly explain it all to me? Or were you embarrassed (in a forum emoticon way) on my behalf because I'm so stupid I don't get it? An extremely mild attempt at humiliation perhaps :O :nono: :D

Anyway, whatever :chuckle:
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 14:35 #38

Irre RE that video of the Chimps, I don't think it shows nature is violent, nature is nature, nature is often powerful and I think we sometimes mistake power for violence, especially if we're not the one with the power ;)
...Molti nemici molto onore...
Last Edit: 07 Oct 2013 14:43 by Ultimate Seeker ™.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 17:25 #39

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I never smacked my son. A 'clip round the ear' is about as close to it as I got, & even that was so unusual I could count the occasions it happened one one hand.
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spare the rod spoil the child or use the rod and create a monster 07 Oct 2013 22:46 #40

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diamondgeezer wrote:
I never smacked my son. A 'clip round the ear' is about as close to it as I got, & even that was so unusual I could count the occasions it happened one one hand.

A clip round the ear! :O That's still an act of violence DG. You awful child beater! :nono:

:D
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