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TOPIC: For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second

For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 27 Dec 2013 21:51 #1

  • pheony
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In Britain, discriminatory attitudes – to racism, to women, to homosexuality – have changed quickly and profoundly. But are religious beliefs now hampering progress?


Enigma code-breaker Alan Turing, aged 16. He has just been given a posthumous pardon for his conviction for homosexuality.

There is certainly no shortage of one thing in the world, and that's a lack of goodwill to all men. And women. And children. If it isn't Russia introducing laws against homosexuality, then it's Saudi Arabia resisting the idea that women should drive cars. If it isn't Burma, spoilt for choice, decade after decade, as to which ethnicity to cleanse, then it's a bunch of African countries extolling female genital mutilation.

And outrageous as these horrors are, even the countries that we in the UK see as our natural allies, and consider as sharing our values, are hardly perfect. The US clings to capital punishment, thwarted only by a lack of the chemicals necessary to kill. Australia stands against gay marriage. Israel continues to favour the needs of settlers over established populations. Europe continues to harbour virulent antisemitism.

Britain is hardly without problems either. Hardly a day goes by without some giant, discriminatory insult provoking heated indignation. If it isn't a forgotten X Factor winner blithely sharing his homophobia, then it is a little-known university rule-making body being blasted for promoting gender segregation. If it isn't some obscure politician demanding that all Europeans should be sent back to Europe, then it's some woeful cliche of a lawyer bemoaning the horrors of sexually predatory children.

Our own transgressions against human rights may seem minor compared to those being perpetrated abroad, and our condemnations of them satisfyingly uncompromising. But it is surely helpful to remind ourselves that our own anti-discriminatory consensus is an extremely recent development. Living adults remember when their sexuality was illegal, when women had the right to complete an undergraduate course, but not to receive a degree. While people continue to count racism against them as part of their daily experience, their parents can remember when this wasn't even against the law. People who expected to die without being brought to account for their sexual crimes against children, as Jimmy Savile did, are belatedly seeing the inside of a court of law.......

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/27/human-rights-religious-rights-come-second

"For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second to them"

What are your thoughts on this?
Last Edit: 27 Dec 2013 22:11 by pheony.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 27 Dec 2013 22:26 #2

  • I AM ALL I AM
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G'day Pheony.

I agree 100%. :thumbup:

One thing that is obvious is that it is labeled genital mutilation when performed on women, and the politically correct term, circumcision, when referring to genital mutilation against men. Why?

Religion.

Apparently some sky daddy wants all male foreskins for some unknown reason ... I suspect he uses them as rubber bands and if you piss him off, as a male, you get your foreskin sling shotted into your forehead. :roll:

The cognitive dissonance on that subject alone is one perfect reason why religion should come second to the individuals rights.

Why do regions even have rights?

A religion, a non-physical entity, is granted greater privileges than a flesh and blood being, as the religion is tax exempt.

Humanity has yoked itself with religion for thousands of years. Yet even though religions are apparently for the people, their track record shows otherwise ... the dark ages, the crusades, the witch hunts, etc, etc.

I can hear the religious grumblings in the background ... "That's the past, nothing like that happens today."



... yet it does happen today, it never stopped. When presented with such evidence, you get self defense mechanism responses ... "They aren't real Christians.". :roll:

All this without even mentioning the priestly paedophile rings and cover ups by those running the religions.

Religion is a disease, a blight on the planet and something that humanity would benefit from the removal of it.
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 27 Dec 2013 23:00 #3

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Hi, I AM ALL I AM. :)

Great post!

Your vid is not available in this country, but I have watched a docu on "Africa's Witch Children"........

In this hour-long documentary, Richard explores the influence of Christianity on native African religions, in particular the corruption of kindoki and exorcism.



These children obviously have no human rights, according to these devout Christians!
Last Edit: 27 Dec 2013 23:05 by pheony.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 27 Dec 2013 23:06 #4

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People go on about their rights and been offended so much these days I think we miss sight of one of the most important things...

The difference between RIGHT and WRONG.

People saying it is their right to do something doesn't make it right and some things people say are wrong these days are not wrong at all.

A lot of religious teachings were actually sensible things to do at the time, pork for example, until high cooking temperatures came around, could harbour a parasite, that wasn't to pleasant for humans, so a ban on eating pork was a sensible thing. Thats just one example I remember clearly from some documentary I watched a long time ago and I will try to finf it again tomorrow and edit this post.

But many of the old teachings are now out of date, and some of them appear to have been just passed down wrong to start with or twisted in the past for some sick rulers own use.

Ancient people knew that homosexuality increased the chances of std's been passed around no doubt, this was before all the precautions you can use these days, even in some more modern homosexual communities that seemed to happen to with the HIV crisis in the 80's, even if a lot of it was hype, it also brought std's in that area to the surface, but as with food, with better barrier protection and sensible practices that can probably be eliminated, but the fact that it seemed they were also into drugs and sharing needles back then also seemed to be a contributing factor. So a ban on buggering initially, many moons ago, could simply have been to stop an outbreak of some kind, then morphed into homosexual persecution over time. Just guessing there by the way, or it could have been someone in ancient history finding a Jimmy Saville in their ranks and been of high enough dictatorship rank to change the law and it get into the religions and passed down in scripture, though with the amount of pedopriests I can't see that.

Millions of variables at work really, many of which we will never really know, but ?i still think it should come down to what is right and what is wrong, morally, in any situation, and all these "rights" movements can go swing if they are playing for the wrong side.

The Civil Law EU human rights laws are a bit worrying, they work on the principle of what they say you are allowed to do, where common law rights, ie those we should be under in the UK but are getting eroded, work on the principles of what we are not allowed to do. The new ones breed more control and regulations, which appears to be something they really want, as opposed to saying, don't do this and don't do that, but anything else is ok but use your common sense type laws.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 28 Dec 2013 02:12 #5

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pheony wrote:
Hi, I AM ALL I AM. :)

Great post!

Your vid is not available in this country, but I have watched a docu on "Africa's Witch Children"........

In this hour-long documentary, Richard explores the influence of Christianity on native African religions, in particular the corruption of kindoki and exorcism.



These children obviously have no human rights, according to these devout Christians!

G'day Pheony.

This is a topic that I have researched and even joined the Debating Christianity & Religion forum to enter into a serious debate over it. :roll: Maybe I was being naive in thinking that would occur. Considering that there are ex-clergy, seminary trained and all, debating on the forum, as agnostics/atheists, then you can appreciate that there was a lot of knowledge shared.

Thank you for posting the video, am downloading now into the tablet, though am certain that I have this and the 'sequel' on a 1tb external drive (which of course the tablet won't read, 16gb stick max :roll: ), which is what I posted. If it's not, then I will have both. :thumbup:
A year ago, Dispatches told the story of how children in Africa's Niger Delta were being denounced by Christian pastors as witches and wizards, and then killed, tortured or abandoned by their own families. Following the introduction of the Child Rights legislation and an increase in financial support for a British charity providing a refuge for affected youngsters, the programme returns to find out what happened to some of the people featured in the first film.
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 28 Dec 2013 02:38 #6

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G'day Paul Tootall.

Who's morality?

As far as I am aware, morality is subjective.

The reason that followers of Islam do not eat pork is because Lothar Schmalfuss, a.k.a. Mohamad, was drunk and passed out on the side of a road and was trampled to death by a herd of swine.

Should we accept the supposed moral authority of such a one and follow the tenets of the Koran?

It is really simple, you have the right to freely express yourself through thoughts, actions, words, your tools of self expression. As soon as you attempt to impose yourself on another individuals right to self expression, then they have the right to defend themselves and stop you from doing so. It doesn't get any more complex or complicated than that.

Another way such a sentiment has been expressed is, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you also known of as the 'Golden Rule' which predates all modern religions.

As far as I have been able to determine through observation, those usually claiming the 'high ground of moral authority' are those most likely to be acting 'immorally'. Religions are the classic example of this, which I doubt requires detailing, though I am more than willing to do so if you require me to support such a statement. :thumbup:
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.
Last Edit: 28 Dec 2013 02:41 by I AM ALL I AM.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 28 Dec 2013 06:39 #7

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I personally don't think religion is the problem. Religion is often the blanket used to wrap up questionable ideas but I think as people evolve their religious practice follows.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 28 Dec 2013 07:38 #8

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i-baster wrote:
I personally don't think religion is the problem. Religion is often the blanket used to wrap up questionable ideas but I think as people evolve their religious practice follows.

G'day I-baster.

I can comprehend why you would think that mate. I used to think that those with religious views could evolve, yet I didn't observe such happening. I believe that those that hold mythological views, fantasies, that they declare to be reality, do not positively effect the world around them as they are not in harmony with reality.

Maybe I simply have not come across any religion that fits your description. If you have any suggestions I would love to look into the matter and would appreciate any information or links. :thumbup:

For the record, I have read the bible cover to cover, taken notes on it and made cross references. I have also 'read' the Bible from a differing perspective from what is generally taught. For instance ...



... the Seed of Life, or Genesis Pattern, is the first representation of the process creating the Flower of Life sacred geometrical pattern. Six circles rest on the seventh, or centre, circle.

There are obviously different meanings given to the text by those representing it (or is that misrepresenting?).

Only that which is connected to reality, in harmony with reality, and is taught as such, has any relevance to reality. The rest is mumbo jumbo teachings, or as you state, "questionable ideas".
You cannot reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

When paired opposites define your beliefs, your beliefs will imprison you.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 28 Dec 2013 15:18 #9

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What a sticky topic!

Religious beliefs and practices? Would it be appropriate or sensible to assume the attitude that unless a particular belief or religious practice harms another, it is alright?

How do we determine what is harm to another, and does anyone have the right of sovereignty over another to prohibit practices that are self-inflicted?

Circumcision of infant males is particularly abhorrent and cruel in my opinion, but many modern parents opt for this procedure for their sons and it is a routine feature of modern birth.

The Ghost Dance was outlawed as barbaric, as have been some hallucinogen-based ceremonies, yet these are traditional centuries-old expressions of religious practice. Scourging by christians is not likely practiced today, but should any carmelite wish to take up the practice, it would not likely be condemned or interventioned. Then there is satanism, recognised as a religion, whose adherents are protected under freedom of religion in many countries, but should the prohibition of 'harm to others' extend to animals used in sacrifices (ditto for voodoo)?

I am thinking that perhaps for human rights to flourish, they need to be enforced and ratified by countries signing up to the (human rights) conventions, and that abuse or harm of others is a topic that may be separate from religion, in fact, is a topic in it's own right. Perhaps pairing the topic of human rights with religion is clouding the issue?

*No caps for religions in my post was not unintentional.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 28 Dec 2013 17:31 #10

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Well I have met many people of the same religion who have very different approaches to their religion. You can say perhaps they are doing it wrong. I think religions being so old are often out of touch but progressive people can still follow the message. Perhaps you can say the world would be better without religion, I would not totally disagree but I don't think it is an automatic fix.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 11 Jul 2014 02:14 #11

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"For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second to them"

This is complete nonsense. Rights are based on beliefs and since there are a multiplicity of belief-systems among humans, there can be no such thing as "human" rights. You can't have a uniform code of conduct when there is vast disparity about what constitutes acceptable conduct.

Religion is a human artifact, therefore rights based on religion are by that very fact "human" rights. Any talk about "human" rights is in reality a bid by a group with shared interest (generally expressed by a shared ideological outlook) trying to impose their will upon society. Human rights is about power; the power to control people by usurping the power to punish people for behaving in ways that are against the dictates of the interest group imposing them.

Unless all of the precedents of common law only apply to Martians, we already have more "human" rights than the average person could learn in a lifetime.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 11 Jul 2014 02:24 #12

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Human Rights are a Jewish construct to push the agendas of minority groups - they are fundamental to the destruction of traditional western societies - to deconstruct the traditional majority culture.

The West promotes human rights heavily but abuses them more than any other block on earth as the Jewish-anglo-israeli matrix seeks global domination and subjugation of all to a communist super-state
Last Edit: 11 Jul 2014 03:06 by Orangeaid.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 11 Jul 2014 02:53 #13

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voxvot wrote:
there is vast disparity about what constitutes acceptable conduct.

:up: :yup:
1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 11 Jul 2014 10:35 #14

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Orangeaid wrote:
Human Rights are a Jewish construct to push the agendas of minority groups - they are fundamental to the destruction of traditional western societies - to deconstruct the traditional majority culture.

The West promotes human rights heavily but abuses them more than any other block on earth as the Jewish-anglo-israeli matrix seeks global domination and subjugation of all to a communist super-state

Ah ...we agree on this Orangeaid...I would also add , it's to make us all feel guilty because, we are told, we're all secretly racist or homophobic or sexist , guilty people need to be locked up , so we all unconsciously go along with the construction of the police state and camps to put us in.
Last Edit: 11 Jul 2014 10:38 by oz93666.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 11 Jul 2014 12:48 #15

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oz93666 wrote:
Orangeaid wrote:
Human Rights are a Jewish construct to push the agendas of minority groups - they are fundamental to the destruction of traditional western societies - to deconstruct the traditional majority culture.

The West promotes human rights heavily but abuses them more than any other block on earth as the Jewish-anglo-israeli matrix seeks global domination and subjugation of all to a communist super-state

Ah ...we agree on this Orangeaid...I would also add , it's to make us all feel guilty because, we are told, we're all secretly racist or homophobic or sexist , guilty people need to be locked up , so we all unconsciously go along with the construction of the police state and camps to put us in.

Keep in mind that the inventors of the red pc crap and tyranny of warped language called people deemed "racist" etc simply "socially harmful elements" and "counter revolutionaries" who were brought in a gulag to die or to be shot.

Read Solshenyzin's "Archipelago Gulag"

They come along with harmless sounding language, but they are very dangerous, because they are fanatics.
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please make my profile inactive, I no longer want to have any connection to this forum.

yet he is trolling further. :facepalm:

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the lice are only going to jump onto other typhus victim

Prime example of holocaustianity mental issues, clinically insane, and utterly ill informed, a danger to public health if this dude was working for CDC.
Last Edit: 11 Jul 2014 12:48 by Oracle.
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For human rights to flourish, religious rights have to come second 12 Jul 2014 01:56 #16

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Orangeaid wrote:
Human Rights are a Jewish construct to push the agendas of minority groups - they are fundamental to the destruction of traditional western societies - to deconstruct the traditional majority culture.

The West promotes human rights heavily but abuses them more than any other block on earth as the Jewish-anglo-israeli matrix seeks global domination and subjugation of all to a communist super-state

I can't see how you can argue that that's not substantially true. To add an off the cuff observation, look at the insidious semantic manipulation inherent in the very phrase "human rights"; to ascribe this title to your random set of legal innovations makes the implicit assertion that no other laws or codes of conduct are intended to be for the general good of all people. laws against theft and assault affirm "human rights" and are not denied to anyone on the basis of sexual orientation or race. It has never been legal to beat Black people up in custody. The attribution of preferential treatment is now "human" rights; I mean, really? FFS
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