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TOPIC: Why are some people Gay?

Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 16:00 #61

  • thoreau
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Seaic wrote:
thoreau wrote:
Being camp or 'feminised' does not automatically lead to an inability to defend oneself

What is this mental resolve of a straight man of which you speak?

Would you rather have a weak, limp-wristed, feminine man with you in a fight or flight situation, or would you rather have a "Chuck Norris" type?

either would be fine by me - people find courage and strength they did not know they had in genuine flight or fight situations no matter their sexuality or 'campness'
Freedom of Speech is the liberty to say what you like, not a freedom from any kind of criticism if the views you freely express happen to be ill thought out rubbish.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 17:52 #62

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thoreau wrote:
PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Why are some people Gay?

It's completely ok to be homosexual, naturally, decently ... but some need to be more "gay" than others ...

.... because they just love to be a prominent part of the new world order agenda
while still claiming to be against it ......
like for example

"our" David Icke's MSM poster boy Sean ADL-Tabatabai and his American toy-boy Sinclair Treadway



Getting Drunk and Crying at One of Britain's First Gay Weddings


By Amelia Abraham
Photos by Jake Lewis

"They got talking on a gay dating site last year and met for drinks at a hotel while Sean was on a business trip in Los Angeles, where Sinclair was living. Clearly someone did something right, because months later, when marriage came up in conversation, the feeling was mutual. Neither Sean nor Sinclair proposed per se, but they both felt certain that they wanted to get married ASAP."

Sea and read more www.vice.com/en_ca/read/camden-britains-first-gay-marriage
And one of my favourite articles www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.582683

How on earth can some be more 'gay' than others? either you find the same sex attractive or you do not

Or are you on about being 'camp' because straight men can be camp too - david walliams is a perfect example - and what is wrong with being camp anyways?


Bolded: Some are more equal
and some are even more equal AND more "gay"
than others.


www.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/p/all-animals-are-equal-but-some-animals-are-more-equal-than/
zlj13051967.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/gay-parada.jpg
zlj13051967.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/raspad-jugoslavije/
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 18:47 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 18:54 #63

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To say that straight men have strong mental resolve......and any that don't must have been emasculated/feminised....is a cop out. A slack, logically askew, cop out.

Your urge to cling to a stereotype indoctrinated into you by controlling minds blinds you to the simple truth.
Some people have strong mental resolve in their daily lives...others don't.
Some people fight in a crisis...others take flight.
And there are as many combinations and variations as there are people.

You cling to what you have been told is normal. Norm All...

Why is it you hug this limiting, self defeating, 'programme' that has been fed you by folk who have no interest in you save to get you to do what they want?

In a survival situation you may well learn to accept others for their individuality and own merit. If you don't you'll either be.doomed to the.solitary life of a scared cave dweller...or you'll be dead.

Whilst those that accept others for who they are will be working together to get beyond survival and back to living.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 19:03 #64

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knobmeup wrote:
To say that straight men have strong mental resolve......and any that don't must have been emasculated/feminised....is a cop out. A slack, logically askew, cop out.

Feminised men are less likely to be reliable in serious situations than real men, and this is why men these days are becoming so childish, insecure and selfish - the role of the man is being attacked by the liberal elites. This is common sense.

Your urge to cling to a stereotype indoctrinated into you by controlling minds blinds you to the simple truth.

Actually, you are blinded. You have been indoctrinated into treating homosexuality as normal and healthy practice. It's not.
Some people have strong mental resolve in their daily lives...others don't.
Some people fight in a crisis...others take flight.
And there are as many combinations and variations as there are people.

I've already said this, that some gays are mentally strong and some heterosexuals are mentally weak, so not sure what your point is. I'm talking in a general sense here. It's like saying that most women are shorter than men - that doesn't mean there aren't tall women and short men.

You cling to what you have been told is normal. Norm All...

What I believe is normal are the building blocks of European society. What your type promote as normal are the things that are destroying it. Why is it that since the liberalisation and normalisation of homosexuality, openness sex in general, contraception, abortion, alcohol, drugs, hedonism, selfishness, individualism and degenerate, mind-warping "art", Western society has been going down the drain? These things were heavily discouraged and even forbidden in the "bad old days". Come to your own conclusions.
Why is it you hug this limiting, self defeating, 'programme' that has been fed you by folk who have no interest in you save to get you to do what they want?

This is something you should really be asking yourself.

In a survival situation you may well learn to accept others for their individuality and own merit. If you don't you'll either be.doomed to the.solitary life of a scared cave dweller...or you'll be dead.
Whilst those that accept others for who they are will be working together to get beyond survival and back to living.

This assumes all people are equal, and all people are good, which they're not. To pretend otherwise is folly.
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 19:06 by Seaic.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 20:19 #65

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There is one person i would really want to have with me in a tight spot. She happens to be a female and i've never met a more reliable, resolute and 'strong' person. So i laugh at your assertion
:D
like that.
:D
and again.

Homosexuality is 'normal' for homosexuals. It wouldn't be 'normal' for me to sleep with a man but i am a heterosexual. That isn't indoctrination...tiz plain as the nose on your face.

You assert that things like homosexuality lie behind the destruction of european ways of life (paraphrased). This is silly. It's plain for all to see that society has largely willingly been herded in key directions. In britain, community was once at the fore. That has been eroded, primarily since thatcher. People have been shepherded into aquisitional debt, local centres of community have been closed and or made not fit for purpose. An american dream of keep up with the jones' was thrust down peoples throats with privatisations and mutuals becoming banks.

All the while, alongside the main course we have had the side dishes. The rafts and lorryloads of divisive news 'stories', the instigation of divisive events, the instigation of perpetual fear in the back of the mind. Judgement day. Nuclear holocaust. Terrorism......stay scared and stay worried about your neighbour.

This much is plain and irrefutable. The course has been steered rather well.

It isn't gay folk that causes this. Gay folk have always been here. What causes this is a few psycopaths and 7 billion of us who let them get away with it.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 21:09 #66

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knobmeup wrote:
There is one person i would really want to have with me in a tight spot. She happens to be a female and i've never met a more reliable, resolute and 'strong' person. So i laugh at your assertion
:D
like that.
:D
and again.

Yes, when you can't debate for shit, be smug, make straw-men and act like a child. That always works! :roll: I agree that women, too, are strong. But we are talking about men.

Homosexuality is 'normal' for homosexuals. It wouldn't be 'normal' for me to sleep with a man but i am a heterosexual. That isn't indoctrination...tiz plain as the nose on your face.

Homosexuality is not normal in any way. It is counterproductive to human life. Homosexuals don't reproduce and don't pass on their unique genetic code into the next generation. Homosexuality is a chemical and developmental DISORDER, not something to be proud of!

You assert that things like homosexuality lie behind the destruction of european ways of life (paraphrased). This is silly. It's plain for all to see that society has largely willingly been herded in key directions. In britain, community was once at the fore. That has been eroded, primarily since thatcher. People have been shepherded into aquisitional debt, local centres of community have been closed and or made not fit for purpose. An american dream of keep up with the jones' was thrust down peoples throats with privatisations and mutuals becoming banks.

What's Thatcher got to do with it? I never said Thatcher opposed any of this crap - she was a ZOG agent after all! I agree with everything you've said in that paragraph (apart from the first 2 sentences), but you can't seem to grasp the cause ; the individualistic, anti-family mentality being cultivated by the elites for Western society. It can't be isolated to one politician or political party - it is a long-term agenda of the elites to isolate people into individual units, by promoting the liberalisation of harmful activities to estrange people from the traditional cornerstones of national life - family, race, religion, nationality. People are too individualistic because they're being encouraged to put their own selfish, base desires first. Humans are pack animals, not lone wolves. This is the natural order, and one of the main causes of mental health issues is deviation from this.

Hey, the elites want to breakdown the family unit by promoting homosexuality and sexual promiscuity, but they mean well... right?

All the while, alongside the main course we have had the side dishes. The rafts and lorryloads of divisive news 'stories', the instigation of divisive events, the instigation of perpetual fear in the back of the mind. Judgement day. Nuclear holocaust. Terrorism......stay scared and stay worried about your neighbour.

Yep, didn't used to happen in the bad old days, did it? There were no conflicts of interest because "oppressed minorities" weren't allowed or weren't able to force their own values on the majority. There can't be division in a society that shares the same values - why do you think they promote multiculturalism, degeneracy and homosexuality? Do they mean well?

It isn't gay folk that causes this. Gay folk have always been here. What causes this is a few psycopaths and 7 billion of us who let them get away with it.

Homosexuality is a weapon of those psychopaths to undermine the people by encouraging the destruction of the traditional family. Homosexuality was never encouraged. Sexual deviancy was on the very fringes of society, and not something people talked about in respectable circles. Now it's accepted as normal, which it isn't.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 21:51 #67

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what values are being forced by minorities?

homosexuals can and do reproduce

homosexuality is normal - it happens in every species and is not exactly new to humans

the family argument is a misnomer as lgbt people have families - it may not be 'traditional' but it is a family none the less

the main cause of mental illness is stress and much of that is debt related

men have always been promiscuous it is only females who traditionally were supposed to remain chaste - in order to satisfy mens desire to pass on their own genes and property to offspring

in the 'old days' people had their freedoms and rights diminished for various reasons none of them good ones
Freedom of Speech is the liberty to say what you like, not a freedom from any kind of criticism if the views you freely express happen to be ill thought out rubbish.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 21:55 #68

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thoreau wrote:
what values are being forced by minorities?

homosexuals can and do reproduce

homosexuality is normal - it happens in every species and is not exactly new to humans

the family argument is a misnomer as lgbt people have families - it may not be 'traditional' but it is a family none the less

the main cause of mental illness is stress and much of that is debt related

men have always been promiscuous it is only females who traditionally were supposed to remain chaste - in order to satisfy mens desire to pass on their own genes and property to offspring

in the 'old days' people had their freedoms and rights diminished for various reasons none of them good ones


When exactly did this ever happen before in the history of mankind?

www.google.de/search?hl=de&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=648&q=gay+parade&oq=gay+parade&gs_l=img.3...1684.3908.0.4125.10.4.0.6.0.0.260.94....7.3.715.KXZbgFh7T2A

This is only what they do in the sunlight!
And I don't want to post links to "gay" BDMS saturnalia !!!
Even the smallest children can easily come across this explicit ... stuff on ziopedia, of course.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 22:11 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 22:15 #69

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So if women are strong and men are strong, how does that equate to a "feminised" man being weak? :dunno:
It follows no logic nor intuition :dunno:

I have never had a child with my partner of now ten years plus, does tha mean our relationship is worthless and has no value? :dunno:

At least we agree that folk have been herded down an isolated, individualistic path and that the division of communities is a massive weapon of our control. :) I don't understand why one would wish to maintain and grow division in the face of it when compassion, tolerance, empathy and understanding would be both the logical and intuitive best course of resistance. :dunno:

I can see your views on homosexuality are very deeply entrenched and there's not a cat in hell that i could chance upon to change them so i shan't bother. Agree to disagree kind of thing but to stretch that intolerance to the level of suggesting gay folk cause family breakdown is a.bit like cuckoo, no?
What are the mechanics of it? Just how does some bloke being gay cause another unrelated family to split up and become a.broken home? It's neither logical nor intuitive. :dunno:
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 22:58 by knobmeup.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 22:17 #70

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What I wanted to ask you since long, knobmeup, is what does your name mean exactly?
I love to learn new terms in English, the latest was "fudge packer" :)
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 22:27 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 22:36 #71

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Thank you kindly for asking.
Id has been dubmeup since i first discovered the internet.
A self amusing play on beam me up.

I chucked a hissy fit over at sanity zone (can't believe there's a place thatmakes the sz look sane)and gave up my account.
One day i needed to get back in so i cheated and made a sock called knobhead.
The mods then amalgamated the two names as a special treat.
Aren't they kind like that over at sensible zone :) (as above)
I joined up here aboit the same time...hence the same id.


But you can call me cretin or scum or harry potter for all i care. It's just a necessary part of internet interaction.

I always wanted to ask you what fizzyfuck means too :)
I won't though. Am learning to resist inane urges.
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 22:42 by knobmeup.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 22:44 #72

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Thanks for responding, of course you did not answer my question about the meaning.
But I think I got it now nonetheless. Are you "gay" by any chance?

PFIZIPFEI is regional child's language for bow and arrow in German
and it is a trademark to which I have a certain inclination for personal reasons.
No problem, you could have just asked in a normal way.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 22:48 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 22:51 #73

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I guess your sarcasm detector needs calibrating. ;)

And that reveals that either your comprehension skills or your bigotry blinkers need an even bigger tweak ;)

I know of a website where you coukd get it sorted for $50 an hour. It's bound to be the shagnasties. I've seen these symptoms before. It's all good, we will get through this. :hug:
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 23:00 #74

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knobmeup wrote:
I guess your sarcasm detector needs calibrating. ;)

And that reveals that either your comprehension skills or your bigotry blinkers need an even bigger tweak ;)

I know of a website where you coukd get it sorted for $50 an hour. It's bound to be the shagnasties. I've seen these symptoms before. It's all good, we will get through this. :hug:


What's your problem with me that you need to resort to such behaviour?
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 23:01 #75

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knobmeup wrote:
So if women are strong how does that equate to a "feminised" man being weak? :dunno:
It follows no logic nor intuition :dunno:

Because women are women and men are men. Both equally as valuable, but definitely both distinct and not interchangeable. A feminised man is mixed up and insecure, just like a masculinised woman is.
I have never had a child with my partner of now ten years plus, does tha mean our relationship is worthless and has no value? :dunno:


No.

At least we agree that folk have been herded down an isolated, individualistic path and that the division of communities is a massive weapon of our control. :) I don't understand why one would wish to maintain and grow division in the face of it when compassion, tolerance, empathy and understanding would be both the logical and intuitive best course of resistance. :dunno:

Yes, we agree on that. :)

Resisting things that strike at the very tenets of our civilisation is not maintaining and growing division, but this attitude is a classic attempt to make people who oppose gay marriage feel "old-fashioned" or "intolerant". Where was the division before it became trendy to champion all these liberal causes? There wasn't any, at least not on these issues. It's quite obvious, and quite deliberate, that cultural Marxism has introduced these things in order to attack the core of our countries - the family unit.

http://mightierthanvsword.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/subversion-by-frankfurt-school-and.html - I have not looked at anything else on that site, so if you find something you don't like don't hold it against me, but it lists some of the Frankfurt School subversion techniques that were designed by leftist intellectuals in a report on how to destroy nations and Bolshevise them.

I can see your views on homosexuality are very deeply entrenched and there's not a cat in hell that i could chance upon to change them so i shan't bother. Agree to disagree kind of thing but to stretch that intolerance to the level of suggesting gay folk cause family breakdown is a.bit like cuckoo, no?

Why is it my views that are "entrenched"? Why not your liberal views on this issue?

I never said it was the individual gays themselves, rather the gay lobbies and the lucrative LGBT "equality" industry and those they serve. These lobbies and interest groups are funded by the government - do you think the government, just this once, are doing it out of a genuine will to help society?

What are the mechanics of it? Just how does some bloke being gay cause another unrelated family to split up and become a.broken home? It's neither logical nor intuitive. :dunno:

What you've said is not logical, or intuitive - but it's also not what I said.

The legalisation of gay marriage is a kick in the teeth to "traditional" (how ridiculous I even have to say that word!) male/female marriages. It is accepting that a homosexual marriage is equal to that of a male/female marriage, which it inherently (outside of Cultural Marxist PC Happy Happy Land) isn't. Marriage is the way our society expressed that fundamental human desire to have one partner and raise children in a stable, healthy environment. Such a union requires the institutional and public recognition of the State. Why should gays be given the same right, when they can't have kids?

I haven't even mentioned that the normalisation of homosexuality will eventually lead to the normalisation of worse things, and make no mistake that's where the establishment want it to go.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 23:12 #76

Seaic wrote:

Because it is not the natural order. How do you think camp, stereotypically gay men would do in a fight or flight situation? Men aren't naturally that way.



What difference does it make how hard gay people are?
:conf:
:D
Coz he's a dedicated swallower of fascism
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 23:22 #77

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thoreau wrote:
what values are being forced by minorities?

Acceptance of homosexuality, promotion of homosexuality to children, promotion of homosexuality as normal, filling impressionable young minds with sick homosexual propaganda... all attacks on the family unit. This is just homosexuals, mind, as I want to keep on topic, but there are plenty of other things I could go into on other issues.
homosexuals can and do reproduce

So, they get a woman pregnant while they're still in denial and in the closet, and leave her to raise the child on her own? Wonderful!
homosexuality is normal - it happens in every species and is not exactly new to humans

It is not "normal", this is why the vast majority of people and animals aren't homosexual. It's a disorder. Going by your logic then, mental disorders are normal and should be embraced, rather than us trying to help and cure them?
the family argument is a misnomer as lgbt people have families - it may not be 'traditional' but it is a family none the less

To argue that a gay couple, with adopted kids who biologically are not theirs, are equal to a traditional family is quite frankly ludicrous.
the main cause of mental illness is stress and much of that is debt related

Don't disagree with that per se, however most people inherit their personality weaknesses and hang-ups in the ages of 0-5 - there are posters on here who know far more about that subject than me, by the way.
men have always been promiscuous it is only females who traditionally were supposed to remain chaste - in order to satisfy mens desire to pass on their own genes and property to offspring

Men have not always been promiscuous - most people, until very recently, had 1 sexual partner in their whole lives and remained faithful to them.
in the 'old days' people had their freedoms and rights diminished for various reasons none of them good ones

Oh, really!? So people were discouraged from sexual promiscuity to stop the damage it causes, people weren't allowed to murder unborn children with the state's support (most of whom the result of casual sex), men weren't allowed to sodomise other men, sexual deviancy was forced to the very edge of society and shunned, excessive drinking was discouraged, drug use was illegal, people were encouraged to behave in a civilised manner... I could go on for hours. In short, people were encouraged to behave as part of something bigger than themselves, something more important than the base desires of the individual.

Sounds terrible!
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 23:23 by Seaic.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 23:30 #78

Seaic wrote:
The legalisation of gay marriage is a kick in the teeth to "traditional" (how ridiculous I even have to say that word!) male/female marriages. It is accepting that a homosexual marriage is equal to that of a male/female marriage, which it inherently (outside of Cultural Marxist PC Happy Happy Land) isn't. Marriage is the way our society expressed that fundamental human desire to have one partner and raise children in a stable, healthy environment. Such a union requires the institutional and public recognition of the State. Why should gays be given the same right, when they can't have kids?

I haven't even mentioned that the normalisation of homosexuality will eventually lead to the normalisation of worse things, and make no mistake that's where the establishment want it to go.

It's nobody else's business about who gets married to who, or who has kids. There's also a legal angle to getting married.
Ideas and attitudes towards minority groups over time have altered & I for one think that is a positive thing, but it's sod all to do with marxism or the usual bullshit about 'normalising homosexuality.' If you believe in unequal rights then I think we can see where the problem is, and it certainly isn't gay people judged by ridiculous sweeping statements.
If people want to be gay they are now far more free to admit it, at least here. What you equate to normalising homosexuality is actually people being free to express themselves sexually the way they wanted to with less fear of emotional & physical intimidation. Would you prefer that people who were homosexually orientated suppressed their feelings to conform with the bible?
People who have fixations with gays are usually hiding a little bit of gayness. & it all ties in nicely with the nazis & all that leather & whips & being submissive to a male dictator stuff.... not to mention the denying. :D It's straight out of Frankie Goes to Hollywood live at The Blue Oyster bar.
Coz he's a dedicated swallower of fascism
Last Edit: 30 May 2014 23:34 by Android Replicant.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 23:33 #79

  • thoreau
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but this attitude is a classic attempt to make people who oppose gay marriage feel "old-fashioned" or "intolerant". Where was the division before it became trendy to champion all these liberal causes? There wasn't any, at least not on these issues. It's quite obvious, and quite deliberate, that cultural Marxism has introduced these things in order to attack the core of our countries - the family unit.

it is old fashioned though - and there is nothing wrong with that -
Intolerant - not tolerant of views, beliefs, or behaviour that differ from one's own.
quite clearly opposing gay marriage is intolerant - so if people wish to be old fashioned and intolerant own that shit rather than attempting to wriggle out of it because it makes you uncomfortable.

There was a divide before people championed equal rights and there was an imbalance of power between those who were able to freely express their love for another consenting adult and those who could be criminalised for it.

society has consistently changed and adapted as marginalised groups sought equality - slavery, womens rights, gay rights, workers rights - as we become more tolerant and less bound by religious doctrine we become more open to the idea that people should be free to live their lives how they choose within certain limits (not committing murder, rape or child abuse being obvious limits)
The legalisation of gay marriage is a kick in the teeth to "traditional" (how ridiculous I even have to say that word!) male/female marriages. It is accepting that a homosexual marriage is equal to that of a male/female marriage, which it inherently (outside of Cultural Marxist PC Happy Happy Land) isn't. Marriage is the way our society expressed that fundamental human desire to have one partner and raise children in a stable, healthy environment. Such a union requires the institutional and public recognition of the State. Why should gays be given the same right, when they can't have kids?

How so? marriage was about the transfer of ownership of a woman from the father to the husband - that has adapted to now mean a ceremony where two people pledge their love and commitment to each other - in doing so the state recognises their union and affords them certain rights and privileges - why should two men or two women not be afforded the same privileges? how does two men or two women in anyway diminish the love and commitment of a man and a woman? it doesn't.

this is an extract from jasikanicole.com/love-marriage/ I think it is put beautifully
As a child, I never ever dreamed about having a wedding, and therefore never ever wanted one as an adult. In fact, my feelings about weddings have always been unromantic and complicated and they became even more so after finding myself in a loving relationship with a woman; who even wants to entertain the idea of having a marriage that your government won’t technically allow?

The beginning of my distaste for marriage in general was born out of defense. As I have mentioned before, I grew up poor in the deep south with parents of different races, but what seemed at times to set me apart more than any of those things was the fact that my parents were never married. The horror on people’s faces, adults and children alike, was obvious. “Why don’t you have the same last name as your Dad?”, they would ask. “Um. Because my parents never got married so I just have my Mom’s last name,” I would answer sheepishly, and then they would look at me like they didn’t know how a child like me could possibly exist.

This seems to be a recurring theme in my life.

They were wondering how I GOT here without a wedding, as if love and marriage were not mutually exclusive. I knew from a young age that a marriage didn’t equate love, a marriage didn’t validate a relationship, a marriage didn’t make you more important than any other couple that loved each other, but I didn’t know how to not feel embarrassed about my illegitimacy in other people’s eyes. So, like any other child, I internalized my feelings, and I grew into an adult who had a deep aversion to the idea of marriage, without ever really bothering to unpack it. This isn’t to say that I didn’t go to my friend’s weddings and cry uncontrollably as they walked down the aisle. I have always been so happy for my friends who found love, but I was happy for them BEFORE their wedding announcements, not because of them. I was happy for them on their seventh date, and happy for them when they moved in together, and happy for them when they talked passionately about their future. To me, that was legit as it got.

Claire and I had been together three years when we got our domestic partnership in NYC, and contrary to popular belief, we didn’t do it because we wanted to have a legal declaration of love for one another; we did it because we wanted to be protected by the law when we both moved to Vancouver for my work. Getting a legal partnership was about security and safety, and this was the first time I recognized that this was the most basic benefit of a legal marriage. The fact that religious doctrine said we were not allowed to get married in the church was fine with me, cause my union with Claire had NOTHING to do with the church. It had everything to do with planning for a family one day, buying property, filing for taxes, getting insurance coverage, making sure that we would be taken care of should something awful happen to one of us. A union in the eyes of the law was a pragmatic decision, and had nothing to with God. I was angry that we couldn’t have this same basic right as other couples, because I didn’t even want a wedding, I just wanted equal rights! Although our decision to get a domestic partnership was a sensible one rather than a romantic one, it was still an incredibly special day, and I will never forget it. We had chosen a pair of very simple, inexpensive rings to exchange over dinner at our favorite restaurant in Prospect Heights where we lived at the time. We enlisted my closest friend Larry to accompany us to City Hall who posed as our photographer as we filled out the necessary paperwork. We took silly pictures next to the “Marriage Licenses” sign in the hallway. When we were finished and we had our paperwork, we stood in the elevator and cried with each other as we looked down at our certificate. Despite the practicality of our legal partnership, we knew we were absolutely committed to each other, and although that piece of paper didn’t dictate the importance of our relationship, the decision to get it did. It wasn’t the domestic partnership itself that was significant, it was the circumstances that encouraged us to get the domestic partnership in the first place; Claire was leaving her job and her friends to move across the country to share a life with me, and I wanted her to come with me more than anything in the world.

As legit as it gets.

Now, fast forward four years to when we moved to our new city and moved into our new home that we own. Nothing much has changed between us, except that we have survived some very difficult experiences and transitions, and thankfully flourished because of them. I still wanted to spend as much of my future with Claire as our love would allow. But guess what. That domestic partnership we got years ago in NYC? It didn’t mean anything here in California. It didn’t mean anything outside of the state of New York. We had to go through the whole process again. We marveled at the fact that this was taken for granted by so many same sex married couples; what if, whenever a married couple moved to a new state in the US, they had to get married again? I began to think that maybe this was a smart idea, that maybe some couples who weren’t really happy together might feel more inclined to separate or re-think their relationship if they were forced to go through the process over and over again. But it didn’t feel smart to us at the time. It felt like a hassle. It felt like no matter where we were or where we went, we didn’t ever count for real.

In late June, we are in Beverly Hills at a lawyer’s office drafting up our wills when we find out that they cannot be executed until we get a civil union in the state of California. This is the very week where the constitutionality of DOMA and Prop 8 are being reviewed by the Supreme Court, and Claire is pessimistic. She thinks that Prop 8 has a chance of working in our favor, but that DOMA will never be struck down in our foreseeable future. A few days later we are both literally awestruck when we wake in the morning and read the news headlines that the federal government is making same sex marriages legal. Speechless. We just hug tightly as my tears start to fall. Now, instead of having to get a Civil Union in the state of California, we are going to get an actual marriage. We will be recognized in the whole country as a legal couple. We wont have to keep filling out the same paperwork every time we move to a new place. If something terrible happens to one of us, we wont have to worry about whether or not the other person will be well taken care of financially. We don’t have to worry about being allowed hospital visits if one of us is sick. We don’t have to worry about who gets to be the legal guardian of any children we might adopt in the future. We don’t have to pay thousands of extra dollars annually for Claire to be be entitled to health insurance simply because she is viewed as a taxable dependent instead of as a spouse. We have always known that we were the same as other couples. But now we will be treated as such. This is what I am elated over.

The strange part about announcing our union for the second time is dealing with other people’s reactions; not everyone has the same attitude about marriage that I do, and marriage means many things to different people, so merging their expectations with our reality was a bit tricky. Most everyone was really happy and excited for us, which was certainly understandable in one respect, but it also reiterated the idea that our domestic partnership we had gotten several years ago didn’t count, that THIS was the real deal. I had never thought of our first legal union as a marriage, but I did think of it as our first public commitment to each other, and that mattered, and still matters, so much to me. In some ways, that one counts even more because we had to take a leap of faith to move forward with it. Making a commitment after seven years is easy when you’ve known each other for that long, when you’ve have had seven years of ups and downs, when you’ve learned to love all the difficult parts of each other for so long. But a commitment after three years with an immediate move to another country? That was dangerous territory, something we could have easily fallen apart over.

We told a few friends and family that we would be getting our marriage officiated soon, but most people didn’t find out till I posted pictures online the day of our wedding. It wasn’t an attempt to exclude any of the important people in our life, but rather a continuation of keeping the spirit of the event low key; we wanted an intimate experience, and that’s what we got, with only our officiant and our friend Kelly (who acted as witness) present.

All the pragmatism and utility in the world couldn’t keep this day from being special. On a whim, we drove down to San Diego a few days before the wedding to visit my high school friend, Henry, who works at a beautiful jewelry store, and he and his wife helped us pick out two simple, lovely rings to exchange. I wanted the most non-clunky, non-showy, functional ring I could find, so that it would never get in the way of what I was doing or where I was going; it seemed to perfectly symbolize my union with Claire- always present but never a burden. On Oct. 5th, Claire and I woke up, had breakfast, and picked out what we were going to wear, outfits that (magically!) matched. Our officiant arrived at our home while Claire was still in the shower, and she sat on the couch patiently as we finished getting ready. Kelly showed up looking radiant in a beautiful lacy white dress and served as our photographer while Claire and I stood in front of our homemade coffee table and listened to each other share her vows. I cried like a baby. Claire doesn’t write very much, but when she does, it speaks right to my heart. Ours was the briefest ceremony perhaps in the history of the world, but it had all the important parts we wanted: our declaration of love for one another, our “I Do”s, and a kiss.
Freedom of Speech is the liberty to say what you like, not a freedom from any kind of criticism if the views you freely express happen to be ill thought out rubbish.
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Why are some people Gay? 30 May 2014 23:42 #80

  • Seaic
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Android Replicant wrote:
It's nobody else's business about who gets married to who, or who has kids.

Individualistic, "me, me, me" mentality. It is absolutely my business that children are being adopted by homosexual couples who can't provide for them what a traditional married couple can! The welfare of our nation's children is everyone's business. However, to you, I guess so long as you're okay, that's the main thing. Don't worry about the health of the society, Thomas.

There's also a legal angle to getting married.
Ideas and attitudes towards minority groups over time have altered & I for one think that is a positive thing, but it's sod all to do with marxism or the usual bullshit about 'normalising homosexuality.' If you believe in unequal rights then I think we can see where the problem is, and it certainly isn't gay people judged by ridiculous sweeping statements.

I don't believe gays should be afforded the same marriage rights as those bestowed by society on straight married couples, no. Straight marriages serve a clear, natural purpose - and it's wonderful. Why should gays be allowed the same privileges?

But go on, continue the character assassinations Thomas. You're quite good at them.

If people want to be gay they are now far more free to admit it, at least here. What you equate to normalising homosexuality is actually people being free to express themselves sexually the way they wanted to with less fear of emotional & physical intimidation. Would you prefer that people who were homosexually orientated suppressed their feelings to conform with the bible?

I do not of course condone violence against gays, and I'll knock that one on the head before you can take it down that perverted road.

I would prefer it if homosexuals got the help they needed to become straight, which is very much possible and has happened many times. It is a disorder, not a natural variant like blue eyes or brown hair!

People who have fixations with gays are usually hiding a little bit of gayness. & it all ties in nicely with the nazis & all that leather & whips & & being submissive to a male dictator stuff. It's straight out of Frankie Goes to Hollywood live at The Blue Oyster bar.

Haha, everyone who opposes something must secretly be one - must make you a Nazi then Thomas! Would explain a lot... after all you cannot go a single post without cramming in a reference to national socialism. This is a thread about gay people, not national socialism and yet your closet NS nature has made you mention them.

Also, please don't make assumptions about people when you have no information on them. It makes you look rather silly.

Also not quite sure what "leather & whips" you're on about - perhaps you have confused me for your boyfriend? :wissl:
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