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TOPIC: Men's Rights Activists (MRAs)

Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 15:17 #1

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I've come across these delightful individuals many times in my explorations into "conspiracy land", and I thought - particularly in light of the recent Elliot Rodgers shooting which has been linked to MRA ideologies/groups - it was worth having a discussion.

Many of you may already know what MRAs are, but for those who don't, a quick definition:

MRAs believe men and boys have become a persecuted group in society, specifically targeted for discrimination. They have cited things like anti-male divorce and child custody laws, male (prison) rape and domestic violence against men, as well as a school system skewed in favour of girls.

As it happens, I agree with them on all these things, and think there is an enormous need for real, organised men's activism, not just by men, but by women, too - because women have sons who will suffer in the school system, little girls have fathers they'll be taken away from and so on. Sexist societies serve no-one, we need balance and equality (in its true sense) for all.

However, in their actual incarnation - and this is an old joke levelled at them again and again - MRAs don't do any actual activism. They're not campaigning for divorce reform, or lobbying the courts for fairer child custody arrangements, or organising conferences on education to help boys do better, or fundraising for shelters for abused men, or facilitating counselling for male victims of rape.

No, what they are doing instead is moaning about women on the internet. At length. A lot. MRA-ism basically seems to be a backlash against, not just feminism, but women in general. MRAs spew the kind of virulent (and often violent) hatred against women that wouldn't be out of place in some sort of extremist Islamic sect. If you read the Elliot Rodgers manifesto, it's not at all atypical - in fact, it is almost verbatim typical.

There are several manifestations of MRA-ism, and I will break them down here:

MGTOW - "Men Going Their Own Way" - this means men who are so sick of women that they have decided to detach from them completely and live as eternal bachelors. Fine, that is their right and a perfectly valid life choice. But their going their own way from women seems to involve.... talking about them endlessly on the internet.

PUAs/Game - "Pick-up Artists" and practitioners of 'Game' believe in having a small amount of contact with women, but only using them for casual sex. They believe in a dubious psychological theory stating that if they can demonstrate to women how "bad boy / alpha" they are, women will fall into bed with them. These types tend to be strong proponents of vasectomies, and are "campaigning" for a male pill (by which I mean they're whining about it on the internet).

Traditional / patriarchal MRAs - the most 'moderate', believe in relationships with women, usually married or aiming to be married, but typically have an extremely low opinion of women seeing them as incapable of intellectual pursuits, higher education, critical thinking, or much else other than cooking / cleaning / conceiving.

I don't want to give traffic to their silly sites, but here's a very good FAQ at an anti-MRA site which summarises it all nicely:

wehuntedthemammoth.com/faq/

So, what are people's thoughts on MRAs, why they are here, and what the social response to them should be?
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 16:11 #2

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This is a good thread to have, because the male counterparts of ultra-feminism don't get nearly covered enough.

I am male, and for starters I'm against both misogyny and misandry. In my opinion, there is scarcely anything more stupid than hating or being embittered about the opposite sex, because for the survival of the species we need each other. However, some things the MRAs highlight are actually quite correct in my opinion. The judicial, divorce and child custody laws are biased against men, and education definitely is. Boys are wired differently to girls and at a young age, lack the capacity to sit still for long periods - they can't help this, it's not naughty behaviour, it's their nature. Instead, they could be given more practical things to do rather than literacy or numeracy at that young age, but as always, the one size fits all rule wins out. This is just an example, and I don't think the MRAs do anywhere enough to address these issues that affect males of all ages.

I think you're correct in that with the majority of the MRAs, they're motivated by a disdain and in some cases outright hatred for women, in much the same way ultra-feminists are motivated by a hatred of men because they're just the two opposite sides of the same coin.

MGTOW - "Men Going Their Own Way" - this means men who are so sick of women that they have decided to detach from them completely and live as eternal bachelors. Fine, that is their right and a perfectly valid life choice. But their going their own way from women seems to involve.... talking about them endlessly on the internet.

If they want to be eternal bachelors, that is indeed their choice, and although I think it's unfortunate, who am I to tell them they can't do it? However, from observing those I have encountered online (a particularly infamous poster from DIF springs to mind) and in real life, I theorise that they don't really want to be perpetually single, but actually they haven't met the right woman and the women they have been with have hurt them, and their bachelorism is a defence mechanism from further anguish. It was you, Timesarrow, who told me about a prominent MGTOWer who "abandoned" the movement and got married, and that he was viewed as a traitor and is now hated by them - jealousy?

PUAs/Game - "Pick-up Artists" and practitioners of 'Game' believe in having a small amount of contact with women, but only using them for casual sex. They believe in a dubious psychological theory stating that if they can demonstrate to women how "bad boy / alpha" they are, women will fall into bed with them. These types tend to be strong proponents of vasectomies, and are "campaigning" for a male pill (by which I mean they're whining about it on the internet).

These people have the mentality of toddlers, I feel. They want to live their lives being indulged at every opportunity, looking no deeper or further than their own base desires. I feel sorry for them, because it's actually a very poor state to be in and they're missing out massively on the wonderful fruits monogamy and committed relationships bear, as well as the fact that their lifestyle choice doesn't really lead to true fulfilment anyway, only temporary highs.

Traditional / patriarchal MRAs - the most 'moderate', believe in relationships with women, usually married or aiming to be married, but typically have an extremely low opinion of women seeing them as incapable of intellectual pursuits, higher education, critical thinking, or much else other than cooking / cleaning / conceiving.

I don't think these are a bad sort, and they tend to have traditional values that are well worth keeping and preserving into the future. However, their perceptions of women are archaic and quite clearly factually incorrect, too.

There's a need for some effective, productive MRAism in the same way there is a need for effective, productive women's rights movements. Both genders face different issues and need unions to fight their corners. I just don't feel the current MRAs do anything of the sort, and their "activism" extends mostly to juvenile, counterproductive antics on the Internet, devoid of any clear sense of purpose or strategies for moving forward. It's partly for this reason it wouldn't surprise me, one bit, if they are actually fronts for the "NWO" (call it what you like). The other reason I think this, is that it's just part of the wider agenda to drive a wedge between men and women, which is in itself just one facet of the agenda to undermine the family and thus undermine communities and thus undermine countries.

Just my thoughts, and I look forward to hearing other posters' points of view.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 16:36 #3

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Isn't this "movement" just the opposite side of the same coin?
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 16:44 #4

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PFIZIPFEI wrote:
Isn't this "movement" just the opposite side of the same coin?

Exactly, Pfiz. They whine and moan about feminists endlessly, without seeing the obvious irony that they are the 100% male equivalent, if not even a bit worse.
Last Edit: 12 Jun 2014 16:45 by Timesarrow.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 17:09 #5

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Although I don't sympathise with MRAs in any way and think they are generally repellent people, at the same time I am aware their "movement" didn't just spring up out of nowhere. It doesn't exist in a cultural vacuum, and wouldn't exist anywhere but 21st century Western culture.

The fact is that men have been disenfranchised in many ways, with a lot of manual and more traditionally male jobs disappearing, and with the rise of a "soft skill" economy that women generally tend to be more adept in. There's also a lot of confusion about gender roles and how the sexes should relate to each other, and the modern "ideal" - where both spouses are out of the house all day earning money for other people while their children are being cared for by paid strangers - is extremely flawed in many ways, not least that the two people don't "need" each other in any profound way, and are not invested in any serious joint projects, not even the raising of their children (which is now done by the state and the media).

What are the modern two-career couple other than room-mates and babysitters, who occasionally go on holiday together?

Families used to "need" each other insofar as they farmed land and/or ran the family enterprise together. They had powerful, compelling reasons to get along and to care about each other - if they didn't, there would be no productivity, the farm/business would fail, and the family wouldn't survive.

Now all those powerful bonding chords have been cut. People rely on romantic "love" - a chemical trick designed to get people to mate, and designed to last no more than 3-5 years - or "common interests", but how often do long-term couples really spend discussing classic literature or contemporary art or whatever? Relationships that last and have real depth and substance to them are built around something other than the two people involved, around creating, producing, sustaining and running something important.

But now that that's all been dismantled and we have just been turned into economic assets to the state, our only function is to make money for other people, and that has had a disastrous effect on interpersonal relationships and what we consider the other sex to be "for". We don't "need" them any more and don't have those old powerful bonds, which is why many/most relationships fall apart and why, I think, we now have MRAs. Women don't "need" men any more, men's instinctive drive to be part of a productive, personal unit and to provide and protect has been thwarted - and as such they are extremely frustrated, extremely bitter - and this is the result.

What I don't understand is why they can't see what's really happening and who is really behind all this, and just blame (all) individual women.... Who (when we look at the antidepressant and mental illness statistics recently) are clearly not happy or winning either!
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 18:01 #6

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Timesarrow wrote:
Although I don't sympathise with MRAs in any way and think they are generally repellent people, at the same time I am aware their "movement" didn't just spring up out of nowhere. It doesn't exist in a cultural vacuum, and wouldn't exist anywhere but 21st century Western culture.

The fact is that men have been disenfranchised in many ways, with a lot of manual and more traditionally male jobs disappearing, and with the rise of a "soft skill" economy that women generally tend to be more adept in. There's also a lot of confusion about gender roles and how the sexes should relate to each other, and the modern "ideal" - where both spouses are out of the house all day earning money for other people while their children are being cared for by paid strangers - is extremely flawed in many ways, not least that the two people don't "need" each other in any profound way, and are not invested in any serious joint projects, not even the raising of their children (which is now done by the state and the media).

What are the modern two-career couple other than room-mates and babysitters, who occasionally go on holiday together?

Families used to "need" each other insofar as they farmed land and/or ran the family enterprise together. They had powerful, compelling reasons to get along and to care about each other - if they didn't, there would be no productivity, the farm/business would fail, and the family wouldn't survive.

Now all those powerful bonding chords have been cut. People rely on romantic "love" - a chemical trick designed to get people to mate, and designed to last no more than 3-5 years - or "common interests", but how often do long-term couples really spend discussing classic literature or contemporary art or whatever? Relationships that last and have real depth and substance to them are built around something other than the two people involved, around creating, producing, sustaining and running something important.

But now that that's all been dismantled and we have just been turned into economic assets to the state, our only function is to make money for other people, and that has had a disastrous effect on interpersonal relationships and what we consider the other sex to be "for". We don't "need" them any more and don't have those old powerful bonds, which is why many/most relationships fall apart and why, I think, we now have MRAs. Women don't "need" men any more, men's instinctive drive to be part of a productive, personal unit and to provide and protect has been thwarted - and as such they are extremely frustrated, extremely bitter - and this is the result.

What I don't understand is why they can't see what's really happening and who is really behind all this, and just blame (all) individual women.... Who (when we look at the antidepressant and mental illness statistics recently) are clearly not happy or winning either!

:bravo:
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 19:15 #7

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Another thing it's important to know when being inducted into the weird, weird world of MRAs is that it's not just women they hate, but other men as well - in general, all men who disagree with them even mildly, and in specific, men who treat women like other humans (particularly when they commit the unforgivable cardinal sin of marrying them, something one of their senior members was cast from their ranks for just recently, as Seaic mentioned).

Men who marry women and/or treat them as human beings are variously described as "white knights" (this is supposed to be insulting for some reason), or "manginas" (d'ya get it? Comedy genius, right?). Also the normal f@ggots, pvssies, etc etc.

To escape this tirade of abuse and be a "real man", one must detach from women, children and responsibility entirely, and live a life of total self-indulgence, mainly characterised by.... you guessed it, whining on the internet about women. Attached, is a helpful illustrative meme.

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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 21:29 #8

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Some years ago I came to such a website and read the comments there ...
misogynist like Sean Adl-Tabatabai
and one of the users even elaborated in all details on what he would like to do to a woman -
sadistically killing her - I almost vomited.

Since then I stay away from these websites.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 21:31 #9

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Hi Madman! :)
I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 21:41 #10

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wtf??? wrote:
Hi Madman! :)

Erm, Madman was famously PRO MRA. Do you see any pro-MRA comments here? :facepalm: :
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 21:47 #11

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Timesarrow wrote:
wtf??? wrote:
Hi Madman! :)

Erm, Madman was famously PRO MRA. Do you see any pro-MRA comments here? :facepalm: :

Ah hahhh! So you know Madman famously ( :D )

Let's give it a few more posts ;)
I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 21:49 #12

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wtf??? wrote:
Timesarrow wrote:
wtf??? wrote:
Hi Madman! :)

Erm, Madman was famously PRO MRA. Do you see any pro-MRA comments here? :facepalm: :

Ah hahhh! So you know Madman famously ( :D )

Let's give it a few more posts ;)

Yes I do know him, he was quite prolific on the DIF as were most of us here at one stage, so we crossed paths. As far as I know however, he is not a member here.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 21:51 #13

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Okay :)
I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 23:35 #14

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:facepalm:

For research purposes, I have just looked on the MGTOW site and found this article. I'll just quote a few small excerpts, for those who don't want to trawl through it. I thought they were supposed to be about men, and yet nearly everything on their site is about women. :ponda:

Men tend to, but not always, hold the truth to be the decider of the debate. (Manginas excepted – thus the name). The man who illustrates the truth the best, is generally considered the winner of a debate. Women, not so much. And don’t forget, women scoff at our “school yard rules.” Nothing seems sillier to a woman than the male “code.” When women fight/argue, there are no rules she adheres to. Women decide who “wins” a debate by who has been the snotty-mouthiest and by who emotionally manipulates the other into submission.

"Manginas", wow... cutting humour there. :roll:

I think one of the absolute best things men can do with women is follow the advice of so many of those “misogynists” of old, and view women as children. “A woman is the most responsible teenager in the house.”

Truth, as well as morals, are only important to women when it suits them. The instant the Truth conflicts with their agenda, they have no problems at all changing it and carrying on – because what they are really after is manipulating you. The most manipulative is “the winner.” The one who manipulates the most crapola upon the other is the one who walks away being “right.”

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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 23:45 #15

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Seaic wrote:
:facepalm:

For research purposes, I have just looked on the MGTOW site and found this article. I'll just quote a few small excerpts, for those who don't want to trawl through it. I thought they were supposed to be about men, and yet nearly everything on their site is about women. :ponda:

Men tend to, but not always, hold the truth to be the decider of the debate. (Manginas excepted – thus the name). The man who illustrates the truth the best, is generally considered the winner of a debate. Women, not so much. And don’t forget, women scoff at our “school yard rules.” Nothing seems sillier to a woman than the male “code.” When women fight/argue, there are no rules she adheres to. Women decide who “wins” a debate by who has been the snotty-mouthiest and by who emotionally manipulates the other into submission.

"Manginas", wow... cutting humour there. :roll:

I think one of the absolute best things men can do with women is follow the advice of so many of those “misogynists” of old, and view women as children. “A woman is the most responsible teenager in the house.”

Truth, as well as morals, are only important to women when it suits them. The instant the Truth conflicts with their agenda, they have no problems at all changing it and carrying on – because what they are really after is manipulating you. The most manipulative is “the winner.” The one who manipulates the most crapola upon the other is the one who walks away being “right.”


If they view women as children.... Doesn't that make them all paedophiles? :O

Seriously... imagine someone of the opposite sex who had an adult body but the mind of a child/adolescent. Would you want to date them? Feel comfortable sleeping with them? Want to marry them? Spend 40+ years with them? Yet this is what MRAs propose as being a normal, healthy male-female relationship.... The mind boggles.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 23:50 #16

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Timesarrow wrote:
If they view women as children.... Doesn't that make them all paedophiles? :O

Seriously... imagine someone of the opposite sex who had an adult body but the mind of a child/adolescent. Would you want to date them? Feel comfortable sleeping with them? Want to marry them? Spend 40+ years with them? Yet this is what MRAs propose as being a normal, healthy male-female relationship.... The mind boggles.

This is how they elaborate upon that small snippet I provided earlier ;

Of course, it is not actually that they are children. It is more likely that they do not develop the same sense of principle and justice to navigate the world, because society enables them not to have to. Regardless of whether they are or not, I think in almost every aspect – from game to simple conversations – a man is advantaged by continually reminding himself that “women are teenagers.” They exist somewhere in between child and man.

This does not mean a man can be foolish and disregard women as harmless children, for as Schopenhauer observes, women are naturally furnished with the tools of dissimulation – the behaviours akin to a pool hustler – and this feature is innate in women and is found as easily in the stupid as well as the very clever. Men should be very guarded when in an argument with someone who naturally dissembles.

Funny, because they are the ones who want to live like teenagers - playing Xbox and drinking all day. :killinme: (Suppose I am a mangina now.)
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 23:53 #17

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Seaic wrote:
(Suppose I am a mangina now.)

If you say so :)
I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. This is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) 12 Jun 2014 23:58 #18

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Seaic wrote:
Timesarrow wrote:
If they view women as children.... Doesn't that make them all paedophiles? :O

Seriously... imagine someone of the opposite sex who had an adult body but the mind of a child/adolescent. Would you want to date them? Feel comfortable sleeping with them? Want to marry them? Spend 40+ years with them? Yet this is what MRAs propose as being a normal, healthy male-female relationship.... The mind boggles.

This is how they elaborate upon that small snippet I provided earlier ;

Of course, it is not actually that they are children. It is more likely that they do not develop the same sense of principle and justice to navigate the world, because society enables them not to have to. Regardless of whether they are or not, I think in almost every aspect – from game to simple conversations – a man is advantaged by continually reminding himself that “women are teenagers.” They exist somewhere in between child and man.

This does not mean a man can be foolish and disregard women as harmless children, for as Schopenhauer observes, women are naturally furnished with the tools of dissimulation – the behaviours akin to a pool hustler – and this feature is innate in women and is found as easily in the stupid as well as the very clever. Men should be very guarded when in an argument with someone who naturally dissembles.

Funny, because they are the ones who want to live like teenagers - playing Xbox and drinking all day. :killinme: (Suppose I am a mangina now.)

Yes, and also, what does it say about them that they desire to have relationships with people they consider inferior, child-like, amoral, dissemblers of the truth? And that they talk about them so damn much!!!

I have asked them before why, if women are so scheming, evil, childish, irrdeemable etc, most men in history loved and respected their wives? Why they didn't seem to see them as naughty pets to be indulgently tolerated and controlled? They've never been able to gve much of an answer.

They also seem to think that in times gone by, men were allowed to treat women any old way with no comeuppance, and it's only "feminism" that has stopped this. Errr... If they care to do any cursory investigation into reality, they'll find women typically had fathers, brothers and uncles who did NOT take kindly at all to their female relations being treated poorly, and until very recently it was common for even the police to deal with abusive men by smacking them around a bit.

MRAs have the typical abusive mentality, which always boils down to the same petulant outrage - "but WHY can't I treat these people abusively, WHY won't they let me treat them like shit, WHY????"
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