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TOPIC: An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity.

An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity. 21 Jun 2014 10:45 #1

  • KoreBolt
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Hello all,

As I have mentioned to some.. I am currently doing research on the similarities of Christians and Non-Christian Truth Seekers.

It seems the two groups have a lot in common... both are seeking truth... one gets it from The Bible.... the other derives from online articles and videos published by researchers. I want to understand what similarities there are between the two groups.... I want to discuss of charlatans and dis-info agents on both sides.... Who are the criminals who make a financial profit on both sides.

Excepts from the Bible include:

John 8:32

You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

Ephesians 6:12

For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this rule this world and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.

2 Peter 2:1

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:3

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Daniel 2:44

In the time of those kings, the God of Heaven will setup a Kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those Kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
I have been recently spending time with a Christian group to better understand their views and draw connections between them and genuine truth seekers. They seemed to mention a Pastor named Mark Driscoll.

I watched a few videos of Mark Driscoll... he mentions sin of anal sex and same sex marriage... which can relate to a lot of our views... HOWEVER when I searched what he says about Hitler... he believes Hitler wanted to wipe out the Jews out in one of his videos.

Could Mark Driscoll be a dis-informant version on the Christian side?

The research will continue... Any of your thoughts would be appreciated... thx :)
- KoreBolt

Conspiracy Theorist - A derogatory term used to intimidate critical thinkers and truth seekers. It's not a conspiracy theory if we can prove it. Why can't they answer all our vital questions?
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2014 10:47 by KoreBolt.
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An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity. 21 Jun 2014 11:53 #2

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This is like a thread from the old Vigilant Citizen. The good American Christian posters on there would have filled you in on the good, not so good, and snake oil salesmen out there.

I've looked at Driscoll's bio. Re your question, he may not know anything different to the official version. Just because he's a Christian doesn't mean he reads non-nainstream history material.

He also may not want to get attacked by AIPAC and the ADL so just parrots the official line.

Unlike Europe the US was not established with one church covering most if not all the population. It was open slather when it was settled. The US also has an interesting mixture of capitalism and Christianity. You're average pastor can earn $400k a year and drives a Lexus. Congregations in Evangelical Churches pay tithes (10% of income) and pastors can make millions from book publishing and tv evangelism.

The US is also rife with anti catholic material as a way to try and lure people away from the catholic church to their own money making pastoral church. Many churches there are businesses.
Those that immediately spring to mind as to avoid are:

1. Jack T Chick. Anti-catholic publishing to make bucks.
2 Eric John Phelps. Zionist shill who pushes the "Jesuits did it" line on everything. To make some bucks and distract away from the Jews.
3. People on the Trinity Channel. There are many.



4. And the worst are Christian Zionists - the worst is John Hagee and CUFI. CUFI (Christians united for israel) raises huge amounts of money for Israel every year. Christian Zionism is huge in the US to raise further funds for Israel and was established by crypto-jews as another attempt to chip away at Christianity.
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2014 11:55 by Orangeaid.
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An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity. 21 Jun 2014 13:36 #3

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Thanks for the response Orangeaid.

Mark Driscoll does come out with alot of good information. The fact he he believes the official mainstream views on Hitler could either because it's an agenda, aware but avoiding the subject, or plainly has believed the official mainstream.

I would love if these Pastors all stood up and researched the holocaust and ww1/ww2 truths...

Also, cheers for mentioning the list of people to be wary of :)
- KoreBolt

Conspiracy Theorist - A derogatory term used to intimidate critical thinkers and truth seekers. It's not a conspiracy theory if we can prove it. Why can't they answer all our vital questions?
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2014 13:38 by KoreBolt.
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An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity. 21 Jun 2014 15:07 #4

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This is some info on John Hagee. The info speaks for itself really.

John Hagee

Posted by Anton Hein-Hudson

John Hagee is the founder and pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas. The congregation counts over 17,000 people.

Hagee is the President and C.E.O. of John Hagee Ministries which telecasts his national radio and television ministry carried in America on 160 T.V. stations, 50 radio stations, eight networks and can be seen weekly in 99 million homes.

Hagee is also the founder of Christians United for Israel, “a national association through which every pro-Israel church, Para-church organization, ministry or individual in America can speak and act with one voice in support of Israel in matters related to Biblical issues.”

Most people who see and hear the Rev. John C. Hagee are impressed. He is rotund, strident, authoritative (and could well pass for Rush Limbaugh’s older and more serious brother). His delivery alone gives the impression of one who really knows what he is talking about. However, careful evaluation of the teachings of Hagee, pastor at the San Antonio-based Cornerstone Church, reveals false teaching and a defective view of a basic and essential issue regarding salvation and the Gospel. Hagee preaches another way of salvation for the Jew, which is in direct violation of Paul’s warnings in Galatians 1:6-9.

This theological concept, which has many forms, is primarily referred to as the “Two Covenant” or “Dual Covenant” theory.

Hagee’s web site tells us that his “vision is for world evangelism. The burning passion of his heart is to win the lost to Jesus Christ in America and around the world.” That statement is not altogether true since he will not evangelize Jews and teaches salvation on another basis than the Gospel for the Jewish people.

Hagee has become extremely popular since the 1987 dedication of his Cornerstone Church (an event that featured an appearance and a blessing from W.A. Criswell, then pastor of First Baptist Church of Dallas) and because of the daily programs from Global Evangelism Television of which he is president. His best-selling books have also made him a celebrity. He associates with the likes of Benny Hinn and appears with him from time to time at crusades and other Charismatic congresses.

The Christian Research Institute panned Hagee’s 1996 book, Beginning of the End, not only for its premise that Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination triggered prophetic events and set the prophetic clock ticking somehow but because he falsely predicted that Shimon Peres would succeed Rabin. The later elections brought Benyamin Netanyahu to power.
- SOURCE: THE OTHER GOSPEL OF JOHN HAGEE: CHRISTIAN ZIONISM AND ETHNIC SALVATION, BY G. RICHARD FISHER, PFO

Pastor John Hagee built a tiny congregation into a megachurch, attracting a nationwide audience through his international radio and television ministry.

His Cornerstone Church boasts a 5,000-seat sanctuary, the largest in the city, and weekly worship attendance estimated at 7,000. Many who have followed him on TV have come from around the country to worship in his church.

Hagee is known for his powerful, pulpit-rattling preaching, which covers the range from fire-breathing denunciation of sin to side-splitting laughter.
[...]

His national prominence has brought him into the company of such conservative Christian personalities as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Oliver North and Oral Roberts.

But even more striking is Hagee’s staunch support of Israel and of Jewish causes, which is virtually unmatched in the Christian community. He launched his annual Night to Honor Israel, which highlights Christianity’s debt to Judaism, in 1981 and has raised millions of dollars to help Jewish refugees from the former Soviet Union emigrate to Israel.
www.apologeticsindex.org/200-john-hagee
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2014 15:07 by Orangeaid.
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An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity. 21 Jun 2014 15:27 #5

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Christianity, Truth and Fantasy:
The Holocaust, Historical Revisionism and Christians Today

Herman Otten

The early Christians were champions of the truth, not myth and fantasy. They spoke and wrote on the basis of solid evidence. Peter wrote:

We didn't follow any clever myths when we told you about the power of our Lord Jesus Christ and His coming. No. With our own eyes we saw His majesty. God the Father gave Him honor and glory when from His wonderful glory He said to Him: "This is My son whom I love and with whom I am delighted." We heard that voice speak to Him from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

And we have a more sure word of prophecy. Please look to it as a light shining in a gloomy place till the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Understand this first, that no one can explain any written Word of God as he likes, because it never was the will of a human being that brought us God's Word, but the Holy Spirit moved holy men to say what God told them. [1]

John concludes his Gospel: "This is the disciple who testified about these things and wrote this. And we know what he testifies is true." [2] John begins his first epistle: "It was from the beginning, we heard It, we saw It with our eyes, we looked at It, and our hands touched It -- we're writing about the Word of Life." [3] He concludes this epistle: "We know God's Son came and gave us the understanding to know Him who is real, and we are in Him who is real, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and everlasting life. Children, keep away from idols." [4]

The prophets and apostles who write the Bible presented facts, true history, not pious myths based upon some emotional experiences. They carefully evaluated the evidence Luke begins his Gospel:

Many have undertaken to plan and write a story of what has been done among us, just as we heard it from those who from the first became eyewitnesses and servants of the World. For this reason I too decided to check everything carefully from the beginning and to write it down in the proper order for you, excellent Theophilus, so that you too will be sure what you have heard is true. [5]

Jesus, who said: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by Me," [6] emphasized the importance of knowing the truth. He declared: "If you live in My Word, you are really My disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will free you." [7]

Today direct revelation, the very concept of truth, doctrine, and real history which can be known are being rejected right within the established churches. The very thought that God revealed Himself or any truths to man in propositions recorded in Holy Scripture is denied. Many contend that there is no such thing as absolute truth and that no one can say with absolute certainty what really happened. A professor we had for a course in philosophy at the University of Rochester in New York held up his pencil and told our class that if we believed the pencil were a cow or an elephant it would be a cow or elephant for us. Our response was that one may very well call it a cow but it certainly would not produce any milk.

Modern liberalism contends that there is no such thing as divinely revealed, authoritative, final doctrine, doctrina divina. However, the idea of propositional truth and revelation is taught by the Scriptures. The Holy Scriptures contain dogma, doctrine, real history, divinely revealed truth, which can be known.

While the Bible does use the term "truth" at times to mean such things as "loyalty," "faithfulness," etc., the Bible also teaches the idea of propositional truth, revelation, absolute truth, which man can know and express in doctrinal statements.

To the Samaritan woman who said, "I have no husband," our Lord replied that since she had had five husbands and since her present consort was not her husband, her answer was quite correct: "You've told the truth." Obviously Christ means "factual precision." He is not attributing "faithfulness or "loyalty" to the woman. [8]

Of another woman we read in Mark that she came to Christ and "told Him all the truth." Again this can only mean "factual precision." Certainly she is not preaching the Gospel to Christ. She simply narrated the prosaic facts of her case. [9]

Martin Luther and other early Reformers had an intense desire to know and proclaim the truth in all areas. Luther, in his explanation of the Eighth Commandment: "Do not lie concerning your neighbor," noted: "We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, nor defame our neighbor, but defend him, speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything."

Christians are not free to believe or spread lies and myths about anyone or any people or nation. In short:A Christian promotes truth, not lies and hoaxes.

Revisionism

A Christian is not a revisionist in the sense that he wants to revise real history and distort what actually happened. Rather he is interested in learning and promoting facts, not lies, in every area. He is particularly vitally concerned about the true origins of all religions. Christianity is the only religion which is founded upon actual history. Unlike all other religions, it is founded upon actual events, which really happened in ordinary calendar history, not some kind of History" which is above and beyond real.history (the realm of myth). A Christian is not out to revise true history.

However, a Christian can be a Revisionist if by this is meant that a Christian is interested in revising what many consider to be history. Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace by Harry Elmer Barnes, who was not a Christian, was one of the first books I bought by a Revisionist during my college days in the early fifties. I still have this copy. Barnes noted in "Revisionism and the Promotion of Peace" in The Journal of Historical Review (Spring, 1982):

During the last forty years or so, Revisionism has become a fighting term. To so-called Revisionists, it implies an honest search for historical truth and the discrediting of misleading myths that are a barrier to peace and goodwill among nations. In the minds of anti-Revisionists, the term savors of malice, vindictiveness, and an unholy desire to smear the saviors of mankind.

Actually, Revisionism means nothing more or less than the effort to correct the historical facts, a more calm political atmosphere, and a more objective attitude. It has been going on ever since Lorenzo Valla (1407-1457) exposed the forged "Donation of Constantine," which was a cornerstone of the papal claim to secular power, and he later called attention to the unreliable methods of Livy in dealing with early Roman history. Indeed, the Revisionist impulse long antedated Valla, and it has been developing ever since that time. It has been employed in American history long before the term came into rather general use following the first World War.

Revisionism has been more frequently and effectively applied to correcting the historical record relative to wars, because truth is always the first war casualty, the emotional disturbances and distortions in historical writing are greatest in wartime, and both the need and the material for correcting historical myths are most evident in connection with wars.

Fostering Debate on the Holocaust

Five years ago The Christian News published a front page article entitled "The Christian News Invites Moellering and Goetjen to 'Debate' -- Theologian Blasts Critics of Holocaust -- Deplores Luther's 'Anti-Jewish Tirades.'" It began:

"Nothing has been more detrimental to the reformer's reputation that his anti-Jewish tirade," says Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod theologian Dr. Ralph Moellering in the January, 1984 Cresset of Valparaiso University.

Writing in an article titled "Lutheranism and the Holocaust -- The Question of Culpability," the LCMS clergy- man, who is currently the pastor of Grace Lutheran Church in El Cerrito, California, takes issue with some "crazies!" These "crazies" do not believe that the Germans actually exterminated some six million Jews. They excuse Luther's harsh words against Jews because of what the Jews say in their Talmud about Christ, Gentiles, Christians, and the Virgin Mary. Moellering observes that some of these "fanatics help keep alive belief in an international Jewish conspiracy dedicated to the undermining of Gentile civilization ... [36]

One of the supposed "crazies" Moellering mentioned was Rev. Reinhold Goetjen. He referred to a letter Goetjen had written to The Christian News. [37] The Christian News invited both Moellering and Goetjen to submit essays of some 5,000 words on Luther, the Jews, and the Talmud. We invited each to submit their evidence for or against the truthfulness of the reports of the extermination of some six milion Jews. The lengthy essays both submitted have been reprinted in the CNE. Goetjen sent us a rebutal to Moellering's essay, but Moellering failed to respond to what Goetjen said about the Talmud and the Holocaust. [38] At the time Moellering wrote his essay, he had not read what the leading Revisionist scholars have written on the Holocaust.

Two years ago, the Rev. Mark Herbener, who is a member of the Board of Directors of the Dallas Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies and who is now a bishop in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, took sharp issue with us for publishing what Revisionists were saying about the Holocaust. He said he had been sending copies of The Christian News to such groups as the Anti-Defamation League. We welcomed the bishop's letter and made this proposal:

The Holocaust is being debated in various European countries. Let's set up a debate on the Holocaust which will receive attention all over the U.S. Now would be a good time. Newspapers throughout the nation are mentioning the Holocaust in their reports of the current Demjanjuk trial in Israel.

Could your Memorial Center for Holocaust Studies get Nobel Prize winner Elie Wiesel, who is perhaps the chief spokesman for the Holocaust, to debate one of the leading Revisionists who claims the Holocaust is a hoax and that the Germans never gassed six million Jews? If you are unable to get Elie Wiesel or someone else to debate the Holocaust, then perhaps you or someone else familiar with the arguments of the Revisionists could debate the same subject in The Christian News. The Christian News will give each side 6,000 words to present its case, 3,000 words to respond to the opposition, and then 1,000 words for a rebuttal to the response. If you can think of a fairer arrangement, please let me know. The Christian News wants to be as fair as possible to both sides. [39]

Bishop Herbener refused to debate the Holocaust, declaring that "your proposition to debate has only wickedness in its intent." [40]

In our response to the Bishop we included this statement

The next issue of The Christian News will include some quotations from Wilhelm Stäglich's The Auschwitz Myth. An English translation of this book has just been published in this country. We welcome a thorough refutation of this book by your Center for Holocaust Studies. Perhaps you could persuade Elie Wiesel to review the book if he is unable to travel to Dallas to debate the Holocaust.

The Bishop responded:

I understand what you are after and I call it "wicked." It is called "Jew-baiting." It is one of the rankest forms of anti- Semitism I have seen. It is closely akin to racism, the kind of racism that produced the Holocaust in Germany ...

The Bishop complained that if we had been sincere about getting the real facts on the Holocaust we would have suggested a debate with some Holocaust historians rather than an author like Elie Wiesel. We responded:

We suggested that your Center for Holocaust Studies get Elie Wiesel to debate, since his is known as the chief spokesman for the remembrance of the Holocaust and the leader of the Exterminationist viewpoint. However, if you can get Raul Hilberg, John Pawlikowski, Eva Fleischner, Byron Sherwin, or Sybil Milton to debate with any of the leading Revisionists, that would be fine with us. Could you please contact them to see whether they would be willing to debate the Revisionists? It doesn't make any difference to us whom you get to defend your notion that the Germans gassed some six million Jews during World War II. [41]

We asked the Bishop some questions he had previously refused to answer:

Do you believe that Jews were gassed at Dachau during the war years, as was alleged at Nuremberg and elsewhere, or do you now concede that this story is not true? If you reject this story, why do you believe that the evidence at Dachau is less credible than the evidence for gassings at Auschwitz, Sobibor, and the other camps?Do you believe the evidence that Jews were steamed at Treblinka? If so, why do you think that Holocaust historians now reject that evidence. If not, why not? Is the evidence for "steam chambers any less credible than the evidence for "gas chambers?"Do you believe the story that the Germans manufactured bars of soap from Jewish corpses during the war? If so, why do you think that Holocaust historians now reject the story? If not, are you ready to condemn those who spread this story as liars or misinformed defamers?The prominent Jewish and former Auschwitz inmate Elie Wiesel wrote in his book, Legends of Our Time: "Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set apart a zone of hate -- for what the German personifies and for what persists in the German." Do you agree with Wiesel?Do you agree that spreading and supporting lies about the German nation and people is a violation of the commandment Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor?"

Bishop Herbener was either unable or unwilling to answer these questions. IHR editorial advisor Mark Weber's "Open Letter to the Rev. Mark Herbener," which appeared both in The Christian News and The Journal of Historical Review (Summer 1988), presented a brief and lucid case for Holocaust Revisionism. The April 13, 1987 Christian News, which published the challenges from "The Committee For Open Debate on the Holocaust," included an editorial which said:

The Christian News is sent to many church leaders, scholars, and professors who maintain that the Germans gassed about six million Jews. We hope some of them will accept the offer to debate or urge some scholar they know to accept the offer. We would appreciate it if those who accept the offer of the "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust" would send us a copy of their acceptance. We have no association with their committee and want to make certain that both sides receive fair treatment. Perhaps we should also note that there appears to be a growing number of informed churchmen and scholars who no longer accept the Holocaust However, some of them have warned us that the subject is too dangerous for The Christian News, even if we agree to give both sides equal opportunity to express their views.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center of Los Angeles was quick to reply. After accusing the Committee for Open Debate and the Institute for Historical Review of being "neo-Nazi," the Center told The Christian Newsthat it is an absolute historical fact that the Germans gassed some six million Jews during WW II. When The Christian News suggested that the Simon Wiesenthal Center accept the challenge from the Committee for an Open Debate of the Holocaust, a spokesman for the center told The Christian News that just as Dr. Jonas Salk, the discoverer of polio vaccine, would never debate with a witch doctor, so the reputable historians and scholars at the Simon Wiesenthal Center would never debate with anyone who questions that the Germans gassed some six million Jews. According to the center, the gassing of the six milion Jews is so certain as to be beyond debate.

The Simon Wiesenthal Centers' chief response was to tell a newspaper in the New Haven area that The Christian News was publishing material from a neo-Nazi group when it published a challenge to debate the Holocaust from "The Committee For Open Debate on the Holocaust."

Dr. Harry James Cargas of Webster University in St. Louis lectures widely on the Holocaust and is known as a fearless defender of the thesis that the Germans exterminated some six million Jews. Dr. Cargas wrote in the June 26, 1987 St. Louis Dispatch:

Adolph [sic] Hitler tried to implement the goal of eliminating all of the world's Jews. He died on the tax rolls of the Catholic Church, never having been excommunicated ... The silence of Pope Pius XII regarding the murder of Jews is a scandal.

The Christian News wrote to Cargas:

We have been informed that you are one of the leading Holocaust scholars in the nation and that you have written several books on the subject The Christian News has just received the enclosed manuscript from the "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust" and has been asked to publish it (CNE, 2018)

However, we would like to give you or some other Holocaust scholar you know an opportunity to respond. Would it be possible for you to send us a response by September 10 for our September 14 issue? Possibly you already have an essay which answers those who question whether the Germans actually gassed some six million Jews during WW II ...

Are you willing to debate the Holocaust in a forum with someone from the "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust"? The Christian News would like to print the transcript of such a debate, particularly at the present time when the Holocaust and the Demjanjuk trial are so much in the news.

Dr. Cargas refused to send us an essay responding to the article we sent him from the Committee for an Open Debate of the Holocaust He wrote: "I am not stupid -- which I would be if I engaged in any discussion of the validity of the Holocaust" [42]

www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p321_Otten.html

read the whole article. Ive just posted an extract.
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An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity. 21 Jun 2014 15:39 #6

  • KoreBolt
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Good on you OA.

I will certainly look at the full article. :)

Have you ever heard of Pastor Stephen L Anderson? He speaks against John Hagee in this video:

- KoreBolt

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An ongoing investigation of Real Truth and Christianity. 21 Jun 2014 16:39 #7

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Anderson wouldn't be too popular with many in the USA under the current Administration.

The Faithful Word Baptist Church believes that the King James Bible is the word of God without error. The official doctrine of the church, professes beliefs in biblical inspiration, grace through faith, eternal salvation through Jesus Christ and eternal torment in hell for the unsaved. Among the church's beliefs are that life begins at conception, that homosexuality is a sin and an abomination which God punishes with the death penalty, and an opposition of worldliness, formalism, modernism and liberalism.
Source: Wikipedia

He even prayed for the death of Obama. That's going a bit far.

I can understand the disgust with modern liberalism.

I haven't heard what Anderson says about Hagee. Hagee was once an outspoken critic of homosexuality. However subsequently he softened his stance. Hagee is a crypto-Jew and his stance would have really riled the ADL and the broader Jewish lobby. That's how I read his change of stance.
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