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TOPIC: Mouse Utopia Experiment

Mouse Utopia Experiment 21 Feb 2017 10:10 #1

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"Freedom is not a measure of good, but good is the measure of freedom." - Bishop Williamson


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Mouse Utopia Experiment 21 Feb 2017 16:48 #2

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So that video was 1983 do you think it still resonates with the human population? I sure do, It's very hard to find evidence to the contrary really.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 21 Feb 2017 18:20 #3

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TomJonDon wrote:
So that video was 1983 do you think it still resonates with the human population? I sure do, It's very hard to find evidence to the contrary really.

In a way I think so yes.

You can definately see things getting grumpy here in Holland, which is the most densely populated country in the world, after Bangladesh.
But I think there are more factors in play than overpopulation alone ofc, as the media bombards us with political correctness, promotion of immigration, tons of violence in movies/series/games etc. etc.

Here's another vid on this subject:

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Mouse Utopia Experiment 07 Apr 2017 16:35 #4

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interesting video. It is almost hard to accept thinking that everyone could fit comfortably in such a "small" area like that. And I definitely agree that the propaganda being forced down our throats is sickening. And I don't recall a time in history that this much propaganda has been spread worldwide like this. The political correctness and pro-immigration and LGBT and anti white undertones of everything "mainstream" has become too much for me to handle and almost everyone I know feels the same way. It's so bad that it's almost as if the "powers that be" are not even trying to hide it anymore. My wife and I have gotten rid of our satellite TV we couldn't take the nonsense anymore, there were so many advertisements that you couldn't follow what little story the shows we were watching had. And even the "values" that the characters in the newer shows have are grossly skewed toward political correctness. and I worry about what kind of values and ethics our children may adopt as a result of this. When I grew up the things that shaped me, were mostly my parents, but even the things I watched the main characters had some honor and still had some traditional family values that would lead to productive members of society. Now everyone is a victim of something and the only way to handle it is to lash out or rebel, they're hardly ever "accept the consequences of your own decisions." And please don't misunderstand me I don't give a crap what sexual orientation or race or religion anyone is just don't shove it in my face 24/7. all these awareness marches and protests and crap are ridiculous "We are aware!!" go back inside and do your job now please! lol

I know some of that was a little off topic and probably not the right place for it but I meant it to reinforce what you were saying. It's not the overpopulation that is causing problems, it's an issue, but not the major issue.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 07 Apr 2017 18:22 #5

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The difference between those mice and humans in densely populated cities is(apart from the vastly superior intellect one mammal has over the other)the humans - up to now - aren't strictly confined to the cities they live in.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 09 Apr 2017 18:16 #6

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Have you considered that the mice who disengage and sort of prune themselves and become inverted from the mouse society in that experiment could be considered to be ''autistic mice'' I have a link to a paper written on that topic of autism appearing in a population if you're interested.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 09 Apr 2017 18:21 #7

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For the greatest percentage of our time on this planet, humans had been content living in small groups and barely eking out an existence. By rights, none of us should really be able to handle the stresses of modern life, and when you look more closely, not many do without some form of coping system like alcohol, religion, nationalilsm, etc.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 16:40 #8

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Ausrotten wrote:
Have you considered that the mice who disengage and sort of prune themselves and become inverted from the mouse society in that experiment could be considered to be ''autistic mice'' I have a link to a paper written on that topic of autism appearing in a population if you're interested.
yeah sure I would read that. autism is interesting from a psychological point of view and I had not considered that.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 16:46 #9

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ragnarok wrote:
The difference between those mice and humans in densely populated cities is(apart from the vastly superior intellect one mammal has over the other)the humans - up to now - aren't strictly confined to the cities they live in.

True they may not be physically confined to those cities, but I wonder how many can afford financially to leave whenever they want. Debt from my experience is a pretty powerful reason to stay in one place.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 16:51 #10

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ragnarok wrote:
For the greatest percentage of our time on this planet, humans had been content living in small groups and barely eking out an existence. By rights, none of us should really be able to handle the stresses of modern life, and when you look more closely, not many do without some form of coping system like alcohol, religion, nationalilsm, etc.

I think my experience suggests the same thing, I find more and more people saying they want to move away where there are little to no people around. (myself included lol) The only reason they say they can't leave is because they can't afford it. and I meet very few people that don't have some sort of "security blanket" type coping mechanism.

These past few posts have led me to realize I do not know how to add more than one quote to a reply lol can anybody help me out with that?
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 17:50 #11

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TomJonDon wrote:
Ausrotten wrote:
Have you considered that the mice who disengage and sort of prune themselves and become inverted from the mouse society in that experiment could be considered to be ''autistic mice'' I have a link to a paper written on that topic of autism appearing in a population if you're interested.
yeah sure I would read that. autism is interesting from a psychological point of view and I had not considered that.

A Topological Theory of Autism

by Gregory B. Yates

2002i23 Draft



Abstract

Every population has a surface, however diffuse. This fact of topology firmly drives brain evolution. Autism in particular is primarily the result of adaptation to the inevitable sparseness of population outer regions. This yields not only autism, but an autism spectrum. It also gives rise to the great variety of autistic forms and genes. These conclusions sharply limit the possible clarity of autism diagnosis and preclude any simplistic “silver-bullet” response to the rigors of autism. The theory accounts for the observed correlation of autism and gender, and predicts a correlation with latitude of ancestral homeland. Autism emerges as a major feature of brain evolution: It is generally not a disease. Autism has been with humans as long as humans have been and has marked human history.

The rest is here
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 18:02 #12

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TomJonDon wrote:
ragnarok wrote:
The difference between those mice and humans in densely populated cities is(apart from the vastly superior intellect one mammal has over the other)the humans - up to now - aren't strictly confined to the cities they live in.

True they may not be physically confined to those cities, but I wonder how many can afford financially to leave whenever they want. Debt from my experience is a pretty powerful reason to stay in one place.
Flying in Europe and Asia is ridiculously cheap. There are no borders in most of Europe.

Getting out is not at all hard or expensive.

Good you get rid of your """satellite""" tv. You'll see much less of the bullshit you took in before is dominating your life.

A healthy choice.
The Only Limit is Your Own Imagination
A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 18:14 #13

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Gaia wrote:
Good you get rid of your """satellite""" tv. You'll see much less of the bullshit you took in before is dominating your life.

A healthy choice.

"Nazis are evil - Nazis are evil - Nazis are evil - Nazis are evil - Nazis are evil"

[Gaia mode off]

Perhaps you should take some of you own advice smartass.
"Freedom is not a measure of good, but good is the measure of freedom." - Bishop Williamson


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Last Edit: 10 Apr 2017 18:15 by Flare.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 18:35 #14

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TomJonDon wrote:
These past few posts have led me to realize I do not know how to add more than one quote to a reply lol can anybody help me out with that?

Once you have your post open that you're replying on, you can still scroll the thread and copy what you want to quote, then paste it into your
reply post, then use the quote symbol on the post menu to wrap the quote feature around your pasted text. then you just need to add the name of who you're quoting, thus;

TomJonDon wrote:
What you wrote that I want to quote goes here
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Last Edit: 10 Apr 2017 18:38 by Frothy.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 22:24 #15

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Ausrotten wrote:
A Topological Theory of Autism

by Gregory B. Yates

2002i23 Draft
That was a pretty interesting read. I like this part
The theory is consistent with Darwin’s theory of evolution but does not rely upon it, and unlike Darwin’s theory, suggests a direction of evolution. Because the theory’s arguments apply to both genetic and cultural phenomena it provides an alternative to debate about the primacy of nature or nurture in human affairs
It doesn't try and make the argument fit any rigid structure like are we simply programmed to be one way or are our behaviors all learned? I never understood how people could think it would be one over the other. I think it is obvious that it must be a combination of environmental social and genetic influences that make us who we are. I personally believe that there is a spiritual aspect to it as well but that's probably for another topic of discussion. It also seemed to contradict the mouse utopia experiment slightly in that the autism stems from geographically distant individuals. because in the mouse experiment the autism showed up even though they were all localized in a confined area. Another thing I am not sure I agree with is his assumption that being socially adept is necessarily a great advantage. I know we can build great big empires and massive impressive structures when we work together in large groups but is that necessarily a good thing? Just a thought. Very thought provoking article thanks for sharing!

and thanks for this too!! lol
Once you have your post open that you're replying on, you can still scroll the thread and copy what you want to quote, then paste it into your
reply post, then use the quote symbol on the post menu to wrap the quote feature around your pasted text. then you just need to add the name of who you're quoting, thus;

Gaia wrote:
Flying in Europe and Asia is ridiculously cheap. There are no borders in most of Europe.

Getting out is not at all hard or expensive

I was thinking more along the lines of permanently relocating not just visiting places. Here in the US its very easy to travel too but relocating is not so much. especially for people like me who when we got out of high school thought the next step was four years of college and that guaranteed us a good paying job. That unfortunately is not the case so now I am stuck in town up to my eyeballs in debt next to noisy neighbors and loud vehicles and just plain annoyances. My wife and I can not wait to get away from the noise and constant human interaction. We want trees and nature as a day to day life not concrete and zombies. But densely populated areas do have their advantages we bought a cheap house and are working to fix it up and it is easy to get groceries and things quickly. But it is mentally exhausting to always have to make small talk and you can never sleep through the night without something waking you, and there are no stars at night! It's like you can never get a moment of silence.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 22:36 #16

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Try get to the outskirts of a city then, best of both worlds, and the further out you can tolerate, the cheaper the land usually.

I think having everyone rounded up in little boxes leads to mental health issues for some.. everyone is different , but its not for everyone, and as humans we didnt live like that just a stones throw ago time wise for the most part.

Sounds like you have one good thing going for you on this - where it sounds like you have a woman who agrees with you, some just talk but then they cant stand being away from the urban jungle when it comes to the crunch... and the majority of western women wont even entertain the thought.
I remember the good old days, when 90+ year olds in nursing homes lived forever. Darn this pesky virus.

1365 = 1

1.1365 = 1,283,305,580,313,352
Last Edit: 10 Apr 2017 23:13 by novum.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 22:59 #17

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TomJonDon wrote:
It doesn't try and make the argument fit any rigid structure like are we simply programmed to be one way or are our behaviors all learned? I never understood how people could think it would be one over the other. I think it is obvious that it must be a combination of environmental social and genetic influences that make us who we are. I personally believe that there is a spiritual aspect to it as well but that's probably for another topic of discussion. It also seemed to contradict the mouse utopia experiment slightly in that the autism stems from geographically distant individuals. because in the mouse experiment the autism showed up even though they were all localized in a confined area. Another thing I am not sure I agree with is his assumption that being socially adept is necessarily a great advantage. I know we can build great big empires and massive impressive structures when we work together in large groups but is that necessarily a good thing? Just a thought. Very thought provoking article thanks for sharing!

I think the point I was making with the mice experiment is that the behaviour of certain mice was introverted and self indulging, that can be common traits with autism, it does not matter if all those mice lived in the same space, some of them might have inherited a gene type, just as modern people with autism that live in busy towns and cities don't live in a sparse area but they may well contain genes of those who have, they may presently share a busy city space.

If you think of it as taking people from the county side perhaps in remote locations (I'm not saying that they will be autistic) but they will have less rapport with one another and require longer explanations during social interaction, where people who live in the dense city are far more used to regular communication, they can say the same thing with just a short phrase or a nod. They have a rapport.

So if you took a distant remote goat farmer who does not mingle that much with others, they would get lost with the communication in a dense city, and others would find them long winded for communicating with.

So people have those different expressions of being which has adapted into their genes because of their environment. So it's possible for someone to be born these days into a busy city but have the sparse expression genes due to mingling of the population over the ages, just as it's possible for mice to have a different expression due to perhaps have an adaptive gene type for sparer locations. Regardless of where they live now.

It's been a while since I read that paper but I recall the point about being socially inept being an advantage if you live somewhere where there is not many other people to mingle with, you would adapt to be ''socially inept'' as a means of getting by, you would increase your traits in other ways, with socialising being down the list compared to living in the city. You won't adapt a tardiness with socialising unless it's useful for you to do so in your environment, in a sparse location you're better solving problems for yourself and fixing up routines and things to fill your day, than to develop many social skills which are useless to you. In the past people may have lived in sparse tribes for many years and their genes adapted to that environment, what we have with autism according to the theory is a sort of shuffling where the adaptation to sparseness has become a sort of problem because the genes are mixed, the environment is confusing, it's startling.

Being adapted to their environment these traits can become present in genes, because of mingling people who's gene types once lived/developed in sparse areas now live in the cities, these traits are not so often developed for spares locations in the present day but the genes still exist and can bring social disconnectedness to those who have them, even if they have never lived in a geographical outer boundary they may still posses those genes, ergo mice may too.
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Last Edit: 10 Apr 2017 23:20 by Frothy.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 10 Apr 2017 23:41 #18

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Yes, Tom, the student debt sucks. Studying in the US costs a fortune.

I bought a nice apartment and although living next to two major avenues with in total 14 lanes, I see a lot of nature apart from the 1.5+ million people. For a price which in Holland would buy me something much less nice.

The choice of close to work and outside, not cramped between thousands of others is always a difficult one. Commuting from a nicer outside space can be exhausting too.

In Europe relocating is luckily pretty easy too. As long as you avoid cities as London or Paris, you can get pretty comfortable housing in nice places. A new environment also helps in reducing the enclosed feeling of the Mouse in the Maze.
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A truth seeker is someone who dares to wade through thick series of toxic smoke screens and tries not to inhale - Gaia
"What do you call 'genius'?" "Well, seeing things others don't see. Or rather the invisible links between things."
- Vladimir Nabokov (1938)
"The silence of conspiracy. Slaughtered on the altar of apathy." - Lords of the New Church (1982)
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 11 Apr 2017 01:22 #19

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I guess a big problem for humanity to reach something like utopia is the way our economy "works". What I mean with that is perfectly shown in the cartoon below (We are wasting our resources on the mass production of the latest f.e. mobile phone, while it would be most useful to produce only necessary innovations with real advances. Also a reeducation of how and what we consume is fundamental.)



" You graduated, from slavery to paid slavery, you actually made it." ~ B.o.B
"For you who no longer posses it, freedom is everything. For us who do, it is merely an illusion." ~ Emile M. Cioran
Last Edit: 11 Apr 2017 12:01 by SNiKA.
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Mouse Utopia Experiment 11 Apr 2017 10:52 #20

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TomJonDon wrote:
So that video was 1983 do you think it still resonates with the human population? I sure do, It's very hard to find evidence to the contrary really.

Vid descr: "John Calhoun's Mouse Utopia, 195?"






NIMH has identified four overarching strategic objectives for itself:

- Promote discovery in the brain and behavioral sciences to fuel research on the causes of mental disorders
- Chart mental illness trajectories to determine when, where and how to intervene
- Develop new and better interventions that incorporate the diverse needs and circumstances of people with mental illnesses
- Strengthen the public health impact of NIMH-supported research


Reads like "inventors of diseases for the pharma industry" to me.

Noted researchers:

- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Axelrod
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_E._Rosenthal
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Sokoloff
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Kandel
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Greengard
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Coover_Andreasen
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_T._Beck
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Mishkin

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_of_Mental_Health

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Mental_Health_Act



Second picture on the Mouse Experiment paragraph:
"John B. Calhoun meeting Pope Paul VI in a rare reversal of the traditional hand clasp".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun


Did Mr. Molyneux by chance inspire you with his "Mouse Utopian Experiments | r/K Selection Theory" video, Flare?

.
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
My Zone by PFIZIPFEI
Last Edit: 11 Apr 2017 10:59 by PFIZIPFEI.
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