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TOPIC: We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body

We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 16:16 #21

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Ugh wrote:
The Bible already says the soul is immortal..
peacenik wrote:
Where does the Bible say that?

Well Jesus spoke plenty of times about eternal life as spiritual beings, for example-
"The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:42-50)

To those who believe in reincarnation into new fleshy bodies, I'd like to ask them how they got that idea, as it's certainly not mentioned in the bible.
It raises other questions too, like-
1- Was their first body back in caveman times or whenever?
2- Did their soul exist before it was put into that first body, and where did it exist?
3- How long will the cycle of rebirth go on, forever?
4- Scientists predict the earth will be destroyed when the sun turns into a red giant 80 billion years from now, so how can anybody be reincarnated then if there's no earth to go to?
5- If there IS reincarnation, did God or the universe or whatever invent it, and for what purpose?
6- Do reincarnationists LIKE the idea of being reincarnated? Personally I wouldn't like being constantly recycled into a new body, I'd be bored. I just want to escape from this yukky planet once and for all and go to a better place..:)


"Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures; yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away" (Psalm 90:10)
Last Edit: 14 May 2019 16:33 by Ugh.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 18:24 #22

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peacenik wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
peacenik wrote:
Did you know, the early Christian church believed in reincarnation all the way up until 1153 AD, after which it was condemned as heresy?

That's incorrect. The early Christian church believed in Universalism (the belief that eventually every single soul will be saved) and they believed it exclusively for the first 3 centuries, until the Catholic Church took over. There is no evidence of Christians believing in reincarnation.

Wrong!

It is a historical fact that that early Christians believed in pre-existance all the way up to 553 AD. Where afterwards it was condemned as heresy.
Your reference is the, Second Council of Constantinople 553 AD. Look it up. This may not agree with your world view, but it is historical fact. Historical facts always trumps religious zeal.

A quick search on the Second Council of Constantinople 553 AD did not yield any results regarding re-incarnation. Perhaps you can provide a more specific reference for my benefit. In the meantime please refrain from accusing me of "religious zeal" as though that's some sort of insult. I'm interested only in the truth, so if I'm wrong about something, convince me, don't accuse me.
Last Edit: 14 May 2019 19:01 by OpenMind.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 18:47 #23

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Ugh wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
The early Christian church believed in Universalism (the belief that eventually every single soul will be saved)

Did it? I think you'd better start quoting a few NT verses to support your claim..;)
After all, I can't see the souls of murderers/ rapists/ paedophiles etc ever being saved, or am I missing something?

Jesus was quite clear that on Resurrection Day- "All in the graves shall come out, to resurrection or damnation" (John 5:28/29)

R-Day is GAME OVER- "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." (Revelation 22:11)


For an in depth analysis of early Christianity I recommend "Universalism: the prevailing doctrine of the Christian church during its first 500 years".

Regarding your request for Universalism in the New Testament, those verses are easy to find. Here are some examples.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him.
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him
Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time
2 Peter 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
Romans 11:32 that he might have mercy upon all
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Titus 2:11 The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people
John 1:29 Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world
1 Timothy 4:10 the living God, who is the Saviour of all men
John 4:42 and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world
I Corinthians 15:22 In Christ shall all be made alive
Philippians 2:10-11 Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess


Now you might say "those verses can't possibly mean what they say because other verses speak of eternal torment for the wicked", well in that you would be wrong because if you look at the original Greek for Matthew 25:41 (for example) you'll see that the word translated as "eternal" is aiónios, which more accurately means "age long". it's the word from which we get "eon" and it's translated as "eternal" because it means "a very long time", but it is not literally eternal, as in never ending. Aiónios always refers to a time period, an age, which has an end.

Also...

[166 (aiṓnios) does not focus on the future per se, but rather on the quality of the age (165 /aiṓn) it relates to. Thus believers live in "eternal(166 /aiṓnios) life" right now, experiencing this quality of God's life now as a present possession.

Source
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 18:53 #24

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Ugh wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
Christianity's resurrection actually contradicts the concept of a spirit inside of a body because the point of the resurrection is to be transformed from physical into spiritual, from mortal into immortal (1 Corinthians 15). Yet the concept of an immortal spirit living inside a body makes that same resurrection pointless since we would already be an immortal spirit.

I'm not sure what your point is mate.
Our souls are immortal, for example Jesus said- "Father you loved me before the world began", and when the young Jeremiah tried to talk his way out of becoming a prophet God said "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you".

In modern terms we can therefore regard our soft squishy bodies as "spacesuits" into which our souls are inserted in order to get around on this planet.
Jesus reminded us that "The flesh alone is of no value whatever, it is the spirit within that is the life".

Let me explain. First of all, we are all resurrected on the last day, as Jesus said.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Martha also mentioned it in John chapter 11.

John 11:24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Even Daniel was told that he would rise at the end of days.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

And that being the case, we can not be resurrected as soon as we die. Having established that, my point is that we become immortal spirits on that last day (and that is in fact the very point of the resurrection), which means we can not be immortal spirits before then.

In other words, if we are already immortal spirits now (as you seem to believe), then what is the point of the resurrection on the last day?
Last Edit: 14 May 2019 19:08 by OpenMind.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 18:59 #25

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Ugh wrote:
Our souls are immortal, for example Jesus said- "Father you loved me before the world began", and when the young Jeremiah tried to talk his way out of becoming a prophet God said "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you".

In modern terms we can therefore regard our soft squishy bodies as "spacesuits" into which our souls are inserted in order to get around on this planet.
Those are references to God's transcendence of time. He foresaw Jeremiah and Jesus. That does not mean Jeremiah and Jesus existed prior to their birth.

Ugh wrote:
Jesus reminded us that "The flesh alone is of no value whatever, it is the spirit within that is the life".
Your own quote here supports my position. The spirit is indeed "life". More accurately "the breath of life" that God breathed into Adam in Genesis 2:7, after which he became a soul. You see, we don't have souls. We are souls. In fact, every living creature is a soul, and every living creature has the breath of life which is loosely translated as "spirit".

In other words, "spirit" is not a self conscious entity that lives inside a body, but rather it is the life that God gave us. And that is what returns to God when we die, and that is what Jesus gave up when he breathed his last on the cross.
Last Edit: 14 May 2019 18:59 by OpenMind.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 20:02 #26

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OpenMind wrote:
peacenik wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
peacenik wrote:
Did you know, the early Christian church believed in reincarnation all the way up until 1153 AD, after which it was condemned as heresy?

That's incorrect. The early Christian church believed in Universalism (the belief that eventually every single soul will be saved) and they believed it exclusively for the first 3 centuries, until the Catholic Church took over. There is no evidence of Christians believing in reincarnation.

Wrong!

It is a historical fact that that early Christians believed in pre-existance all the way up to 553 AD. Where afterwards it was condemned as heresy.
Your reference is the, Second Council of Constantinople 553 AD. Look it up. This may not agree with your world view, but it is historical fact. Historical facts always trumps religious zeal.

A quick search on the Second Council of Constantinople 553 AD did not yield any results regarding re-incarnation. Perhaps you can provide a more specific reference for my benefit. .

"Those who reject pre-existence, which would be every Christian denomination that accepts the conclusions of the Second Council of Constantinople"

"A concept of pre-existence was advanced by Origen, a second and third-century church father"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

FYI, The Cathors were a specific early Christian group that believed in reincarnation.

"They also believed in metempsychosis or the transmigration of souls, as had the Pythagoreans. In other words, both Pythagoreans and Cathars believed not only in reincarnation but in the rebirth of the soul in animals as well as humans - and both refrained from eating meat for exactly this reason."


www.cathar.info/cathar_beliefs.htm

OK, there's your references that show you, the early Christian religion believed in pre-existance all the way up until the Second Council of Constantinople 553 AD
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
Last Edit: 14 May 2019 20:47 by peacenik.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 20:50 #27

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Have you looked at the timeline page for your Cathor reference? This was a group that was active from the 12th to 14th centuries. That's not exactly early Chrisitanity, which would rightly be considered those Christians who lived within the first four centuries after Christ.

As for pre-existence, your reference to a single man who believed and taught it, hardly constitutes evidence that "the early Christian church believed in reincarnation".
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 21:03 #28

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OpenMind wrote:
Have you looked at the timeline page for your Cathor reference? This was a group that was active from the 12th to 14th centuries. That's not exactly early Chrisitanity, which would rightly be considered those Christians who lived within the first four centuries after Christ.

As for pre-existence, your reference to a single man who believed and taught it, hardly constitutes evidence that "the early Christian church believed in reincarnation".

You do not like me calling you a, " religious zealot". Yet ,you continue to argue the point even after I honored your request to show you references
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 21:06 #29

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Connect Dots wrote:
But we can heal ourselves if we remove blockages.

Dr. Sue Morter, a Doctor of Chiropractic, and the person interviewed in the opening post video, is the author of The Energy Codes: The 7-Step System to Awaken Your Spirit, Heal Your Body, and Live Your Best Life.

Here's a review on Amazon:
The Energy Codes offers deep insights and powerful, practical techniques that brilliantly merge the ever-blending worlds of science and spirituality to help reveal the truth of our being and the depths of our greatness. In this phenomenal book, which I strongly encourage you to read, Dr. Sue Morter will help guide you to living more fully and expressing your true potential.” (Jack Canfield, coauthor of the Chicken Soup for the Soul® series and The Success Principles™ )

Amazon
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 21:38 #30

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Connect Dots wrote:
Dr. Sue Morter, a Doctor of Chiropractic..is the author of The Energy Codes: The 7-Step System to Awaken Your Spirit, Heal Your Body, and Live Your Best Life

Haha, a young carpenter already told us how to do that 2000 years ago..:)
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 22:16 #31

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Ugh wrote:
Haha, a young carpenter already told us how to do that 2000 years ago..:)
Not funny.

Christianity is a religion.

God/Source/life force/energy does not have a religion.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 23:01 #32

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peacenik wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
Have you looked at the timeline page for your Cathor reference? This was a group that was active from the 12th to 14th centuries. That's not exactly early Chrisitanity, which would rightly be considered those Christians who lived within the first four centuries after Christ.

As for pre-existence, your reference to a single man who believed and taught it, hardly constitutes evidence that "the early Christian church believed in reincarnation".

You do not like me calling you a, " religious zealot". Yet ,you continue to argue the point even after I honored your request to show you references

My pointing out the lack of evidence in your references does not reflect on my religious views at all, so the fact that you're trying to make that connection seems an obvious attempt at changing the subject. Can you back up your claims, or not?
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 23:19 #33

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Connect Dots wrote:
Ugh wrote:
Haha, a young carpenter already told us how to do that 2000 years ago..:)
Not funny.

Christianity is a religion.

God/Source/life force/energy does not have a religion.

This is actually a very serious and a very interesting subject. Studies have indeed shown that people with multiple personality disorders can have an addiction in one personality but not in the other, an allergy in one personality but not the other and even bad eyesight in one but not the other. It's a remarkable testament to the link between body and mind and essentially proves that the mind can heal the body. This fact however in no way reduces our need for salvation through Christ; it only speaks to the incredible creation of God and perhaps more importantly to the possibility that this link exists not only between our body and mind, but perhaps throughout all of creation.

One need only have the experience of breaking a relationship to understand that we are all connected to each other on some level, just as we are connected to God, and the more time we spend with a person the stronger that connection becomes. It's entirely possible that this connection is a byproduct of life itself, of which all has the same source, God the father. If that's the case, then to say that we're connected to animal or even plant life is not a stretch of the imagination at all.

Again however, such connections do not negate the need for a creator; on the contrary I believe this single thread that runs through all of creation, though we barely even know of its existence let alone understand it, in my opinion would only further prove the existence of a creator.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 23:45 #34

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OpenMind wrote:
This fact however in no way reduces our need for salvation through Christ . . .
There is no God who gave up a son to "save" us from sin.

That is absolute nonsense.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 23:48 #35

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Connect Dots wrote:
Christianity is a religion.
God/Source/life force/energy does not have a religion.

Jesus is not a "religion", he's JESUS..:)
In modern terms he was an alien visitor with awesome powers who came to tell us how to get off this planet when we die..:)

"I am not of this world ....though you do not believe me, believe the miracles.....i'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world...God has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners." (John 8:23,John 10:38,Matt 13:35,Luke 4:18)
Hey Spock will you listen to JC?

"Of course, and please don't make that crack about me being "all ears" yet again!"

Last Edit: 14 May 2019 23:55 by Ugh.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 14 May 2019 23:50 #36

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Connect Dots wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
This fact however in no way reduces our need for salvation through Christ . . .
There is no God who gave up a son to "save" us from sin.

That is absolute nonsense.

It's your prerogative to believe that of course, and it's not my intention to try to convince you otherwise. We're simply coming at this from a different starting point. I will always base my understanding on what I believe to be foundational truth. I'm sure you'll do the same.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 15 May 2019 00:00 #37

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Connect Dots wrote:
There is no God who gave up a son to "save" us from sin.

No God? Dawkins might not agree with you..:)

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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 15 May 2019 00:45 #38

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Ugh wrote:
Jesus is not a "religion", he's JESUS..:)

Things he said are common sense that any of us are capable of.
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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 15 May 2019 01:13 #39

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Connect Dots wrote:
Dr. Sue Morter, a Doctor of Chiropractic, and the person interviewed in the opening post video, is the author of The Energy Codes: The 7-Step System to Awaken Your Spirit, Heal Your Body, and Live Your Best Life.

Here she is discussing her book:
Joe Kania
Published on Feb 15, 2019

Everything is energy, including you. Quantum science is showing us, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that everything in our world– including our thoughts, feelings and beliefs– is energy held in different patterns. These patterns are the basis of our reality impacting our perceptions, our vitality and even our health. Learning the truth of who we are as energy beings, we become powerful creators of our life experience.

Based in quantum science, neuroscience and energy medicine, The Energy Codes® teach us how to train the mind to serve the great intuitive presence that we truly are, by listening to the unspoken language from within the deep core of the body–a true celebration of the human spirit.

Dr. Morter describes her journey as a doctor who had a spontaneous awakening to the Soulful Self, codifying the process of guiding others to do the same. Learning to shift from living in our heads and the stress created there to claiming the benefit of living in our wholeness has never been needed more. Our current times are calling us to awaken a greater version of ourselves and experience the life we were intended to live. Join the Vail Symposium as Dr. Morter guides us to this greater understanding with her fun, uplifting and inspired presentation style.

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We're Spiritual Beings Occupying a Body 15 May 2019 02:11 #40

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OpenMind wrote:
peacenik wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
Have you looked at the timeline page for your Cathor reference? This was a group that was active from the 12th to 14th centuries. That's not exactly early Chrisitanity, which would rightly be considered those Christians who lived within the first four centuries after Christ.

As for pre-existence, your reference to a single man who believed and taught it, hardly constitutes evidence that "the early Christian church believed in reincarnation".

You do not like me calling you a, " religious zealot". Yet ,you continue to argue the point even after I honored your request to show you references

My pointing out the lack of evidence in your references does not reflect on my religious views at all, so the fact that you're trying to make that connection seems an obvious attempt at changing the subject. Can you back up your claims, or not?

Your concerns were answered in post #26 above. Everyone who reads this thread knows it.

Now you're just trolling for effect, w/o saying anything profound. It's really to bad. Your first couple of posts on this thread led me to believe, I had someone to debate this important topic. Now it seems all you can do is toss around biblical quotes and accuse me of being insincere.
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
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