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TOPIC: What Happens When You Die

What Happens When You Die 11 May 2019 02:07 #1

  • OpenMind
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Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.

What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.



Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.

Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.

It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.
The Spiritual Conundrum

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!

If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.



Soul (Nephesh)

To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die.

The living creature who sins…
The person who sins…
The individual who sins…



The Spirit (Ruach)

These are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

For example

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15
Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29
When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.
English NameHebrew Name
The Spirit of GodRuach Elohim
The Spirit of the LordRuach Adonai
The Holy SpiritRuach Hakkodesh
The Spirit of the Lord GodRuach Adonai Elohim
The Spirit of GodRuach-El

Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).



When Jesus Died

When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure.

Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.

Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.


Further Evidence

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth

John 3:13
And no man has ascended up to heaven
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 00:28 #2

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OpenMind wrote:
Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.

My experience is that the Bible is not very good advocate of Man's spirituality. Plato was much more of an advocate than the Bible.

Man is an unwitting immortal being, that has been lied to and deceived into believing he is less than what he is.

t's amazing when you think about it, Man has given the Bible authority over his immorality, yet the Bible hardly admits there is a spiritual aspect of Man. When the Bible does talk about Man's spirituality, it's given out as deception and used to deliberately confuse and confound.
Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
Last Edit: 12 May 2019 02:32 by peacenik.
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 10:05 #3

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OpenMind wrote:
John 3:13
And no man has ascended up to heaven
John 3:13
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The difference between quoting part of a scripture and the full scripture
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 10:38 #4

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We must keep the verse in context. In verses 10-12, especially, we see that Jesus is talking about His authority and the validity of His teaching.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that He has been teaching what He knew firsthand: “We speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen” (verse 11). Then, in verse 13 Jesus explains why He is uniquely qualified to teach of the kingdom of God—namely, because He alone came down from heaven and possesses the knowledge to teach people about heaven. Jesus alone has seen the Father, and He alone is qualified to declare God and make Him known (John 1:18).

The gist of John 3:13 is this: 'None of your earthly teachers can really teach you about heaven, because none of them have actually been there. However, I have been there. In fact, it is My home. I have come to you from heaven, and I have brought with Me experiential knowledge of that place. My testimony carries weight'. The NLT brings out the meaning well: “No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.”

In claiming a heavenly abode, Jesus was claiming deity. Nicodemus himself had already admitted that Jesus was extraordinary when he said, “We know you are a teacher who has come from God” (verse 2).

Jesus was not teaching that no one had ever gone to heaven before. Rather, He was teaching that, He had the best credentials. Jesus has direct contact with heaven; He is an expert on the subject.

www.gotquestions.org/John-3-13.html
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 10:57 #5

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.



Peter Fenwick has done a lot of decent research into near death experiences, which is as near as we'll ever know until the day has passed when death occurs.

He speaks about the importance of finding peace and letting go for an easy transition, that would include letting go of your beliefs, they no longer apply.

The sooner the better.
Once a hyena always a hyena.
Last Edit: 12 May 2019 11:17 by Frothy.
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 12:54 #6

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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 13:39 #7

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Frothy wrote:
.



Peter Fenwick has done a lot of decent research into near death experiences, which is as near as we'll ever know until the day has passed when death occurs.

He speaks about the importance of finding peace and letting go for an easy transition, that would include letting go of your beliefs, they no longer apply.

The sooner the better.
He looks pretty lively for an expert on near death experiences. You're a gullible fool Frothy
You can't fix stupid
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 13:42 #8

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annabelle wrote:

"So I'm at this party, and one thing let to another, and I had a near death experience" :facepalm: :iitm:

Don't do drugs!
You can't fix stupid
Last Edit: 12 May 2019 13:43 by Rocco.
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 13:52 #9

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Rocco wrote:
Frothy wrote:
.



Peter Fenwick has done a lot of decent research into near death experiences, which is as near as we'll ever know until the day has passed when death occurs.

He speaks about the importance of finding peace and letting go for an easy transition, that would include letting go of your beliefs, they no longer apply.

The sooner the better.
He looks pretty lively for an expert on near death experiences. You're a gullible fool Frothy

He's been collecting data and comparing it you idiot,
Once a hyena always a hyena.
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 14:14 #10

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Frothy wrote:
Rocco wrote:
Frothy wrote:
.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Peter Fenwick has done a lot of decent research into near death experiences, which is as near as we'll ever know until the day has passed when death occurs.

He speaks about the importance of finding peace and letting go for an easy transition, that would include letting go of your beliefs, they no longer apply.

The sooner the better.
He looks pretty lively for an expert on near death experiences. You're a gullible fool Frothy

He's been collecting data and comparing it you idiot,
Data from the Afterlife? Does he go get that data himself, or does someone/thing send it to him?
You know what happens when you dabble in this shit and you accidentally die? You go straight to hell :)
You can't fix stupid
Last Edit: 12 May 2019 14:15 by Rocco.
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 14:48 #11

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Frothy wrote:
.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Peter Fenwick has done a lot of decent research into near death experiences, which is as near as we'll ever know until the day has passed when death occurs.

He speaks about the importance of finding peace and letting go for an easy transition, that would include letting go of your beliefs, they no longer apply.

The sooner the better.

You can't fix stupid
Last Edit: 12 May 2019 14:48 by Rocco.
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 17:08 #12

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OpenMind wrote:
.All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures..

Agreed, that's the standard Christian belief, so why was your original post so very long?
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 20:40 #13

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What happens when you die?

Death is a shock!

You usually hover over your dead body trying to figure out what to do next. You body has been your identity all throughout your lifetime. Now, you have no identity. People are morning your dead body, but you cannot communicate to them because you have no body to do so. You have to have a body to communicate with.

Most times the dead person hangs around the dead body until the dead body is properly disposed of. After that, realizing the inability to communicate with others who have bodies, combined with the desire to be part of it all. The dead person eventually inhabits the body of a newborn baby being formed inside a pregnant woman.

Below is an ancient image of a Snake inside a pregnant woman awaiting rebirth.



FYI, the ancient symbol for a disembodied soul is the snake or serpent. There is more than one reason for this. The main reason is because the snake sheds it's skin thereby renewing itself. Just like Man does when he dies and assumes another body thereby renewing himself.



Thus, the snake is the world's most powerful symbol of rebirth.

Birth is not a beginning; death is not an end. There is existence without limitation; there is continuity without a starting point.” ~ Chuang Tzu
Last Edit: 12 May 2019 21:10 by peacenik.
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What Happens When You Die 12 May 2019 21:19 #14

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peacenik wrote:
What happens when you die?

Death is a shock!

You usually hover over your dead body trying to figure out what to do next. You body has been your identity all throughout your lifetime. Now, you have no identity. People are morning your dead body, but you cannot communicate to them because you have no body to do so. You have to have a body to communicate with.

Most times the dead person hangs around the dead body until the dead body is properly disposed of. After that, realizing the inability to communicate with others who have bodies, combined with the desire to be part of it all. The dead person eventually inhabits the body of a newborn baby being formed inside a pregnant woman.

Below is an ancient image of a Snake inside a pregnant woman awaiting rebirth.



FYI, the ancient symbol for a disembodied soul is the snake or serpent. There is more than one reason for this. The main reason is because the snake sheds it's skin thereby renewing itself. Just like Man does when he dies and assumes another body thereby renewing himself.



Thus, the snake is the world's most powerful symbol of rebirth.


You can't fix stupid
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What Happens When You Die 13 May 2019 16:14 #15

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annabelle wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
John 3:13
And no man has ascended up to heaven
John 3:13
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The difference between quoting part of a scripture and the full scripture

Not sure how that makes a difference. Even the first part that I quoted obviously excepts Jesus who ascended up to heaven. The point is that regular people don't go to heaven when they die. Do you think posting the full scripture refutes that statement?
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What Happens When You Die 13 May 2019 16:17 #16

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annabelle wrote:
We must keep the verse in context. In verses 10-12, especially, we see that Jesus is talking about His authority and the validity of His teaching.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that He has been teaching what He knew firsthand: “We speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen” (verse 11). Then, in verse 13 Jesus explains why He is uniquely qualified to teach of the kingdom of God—namely, because He alone came down from heaven and possesses the knowledge to teach people about heaven. Jesus alone has seen the Father, and He alone is qualified to declare God and make Him known (John 1:18).

The gist of John 3:13 is this: 'None of your earthly teachers can really teach you about heaven, because none of them have actually been there. However, I have been there. In fact, it is My home. I have come to you from heaven, and I have brought with Me experiential knowledge of that place. My testimony carries weight'. The NLT brings out the meaning well: “No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.”

In claiming a heavenly abode, Jesus was claiming deity. Nicodemus himself had already admitted that Jesus was extraordinary when he said, “We know you are a teacher who has come from God” (verse 2).

Jesus was not teaching that no one had ever gone to heaven before. Rather, He was teaching that, He had the best credentials. Jesus has direct contact with heaven; He is an expert on the subject.

www.gotquestions.org/John-3-13.html

I don't dispute that Jesus said he had the best credentials but when he said no one has gone to heaven, he was clearly saying that no one has gone to heaven. Not sure how you can gloss over that part of his statement and pretend he didn't say that. He literally said it.
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What Happens When You Die 13 May 2019 16:20 #17

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Ugh wrote:
OpenMind wrote:
.All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures..

Agreed, that's the standard Christian belief, so why was your original post so very long?

My post was long because unfortunately the standard Christian belief is not this at all, but that we are spirits living inside of temporary vessels (our bodies) and that we go immediately to heaven or hell upon death (effectively bypassing the judgment and nullifying the resurrection). So I went into this topic with the full expectation of having to convince and refute the typical Christian.

At least that's the standard belief in North America. Are you in a different part of the world?
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What Happens When You Die 13 May 2019 16:22 #18

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Frothy wrote:
.



Peter Fenwick has done a lot of decent research into near death experiences, which is as near as we'll ever know until the day has passed when death occurs.

He speaks about the importance of finding peace and letting go for an easy transition, that would include letting go of your beliefs, they no longer apply.

The sooner the better.

I used to also believe in those near death experiences because a lot of those stories are very compelling, but my foundation for understanding is the scriptures and it clearly refutes these stories. Therefore, in my mind, these stories have lost credibility.
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What Happens When You Die 13 May 2019 16:28 #19

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peacenik wrote:

FYI, the ancient symbol for a disembodied soul is the snake or serpent. There is more than one reason for this. The main reason is because the snake sheds it's skin thereby renewing itself. Just like Man does when he dies and assumes another body thereby renewing himself.

Aside from the fact that there's no evidence of it, reincarnation simply makes no sense. The premise is that if you're a good person you'll be born into fortune in your next life, but if you're a bad person you'll be born into despair. How would such a mechanism work without a God judging your life and determining your next body? And what would be the point of it if you can't remember the sins of your past life?
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What Happens When You Die 13 May 2019 19:39 #20

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Rocco wrote:
annabelle wrote:

"So I'm at this party, and one thing let to another, and I had a near death experience" :facepalm: :iitm:

Don't do drugs!

I'll be sure to make a note that only people that meet your criteria can have a near death experience. :thumbup:
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