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TOPIC: Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER.

Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 08:17 #41

  • Orangeaid
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Sanger being a eugenisist is hardly "assertion". It's fact. Quotes abound of her desire to breed out undesirables and to breed a race of "thoroughbreds". Sounds mighty like lebensborn doesn't it? Sanger I think would have been very supportive of weeding out gypsies, homosexuals and the disabled to breed in an Aryan master race, don't you?
“Like the advocates of Birth Control, the eugenists, for instance, are seeking to assist the race toward the elimination of the unfit.”1 These are the words of a woman who is heralded by women’s rights groups worldwide.  These are the words of Margaret Sanger, the mother of Planned Parenthood, whose beliefs were firmly rooted in the destructive pseudo-science of Negative Eugenics, a social movement that believed in selective breeding to better the human race by preventing the reproduction of the ‘unfit’.2Professionally, Sanger was a nurse who testified before the U.S. Senate in 1916 to call for the formation of the Population Congress that would seek to employ Negative Eugenics to separate humanity. Drastically limiting immigration of those considered ‘unfit’ was a mainstay of Sanger and her fellow eugenists. Their draconian proposals of forced segregation, for American citizens, were commonly held views among these ‘progressives’ who sought to achieve a superior and more intelligent race.

“…apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted…to apportion farm lands and homesteads for these segregated persons where they would be…for the period of their entire lives.”– Margaret Sanger, Birth Control Review, “Plan for Peace”, April 1932, Vol 26, Number 4

Margaret Sanger, an American elite (whose second marriage to oil tycoon Noah Slee provided much of the financial backing for her cause) is the mother of Birth Control in America. Although a mother herself, she abandoned her own children for something she felt was more worthy of her time and passion.  Some herald her as a hero that advanced women’s rights to new heights. But it’s important to understand the context in which she championed such ‘rights’. It was not out of benevolence but a deep-seated hatred of ‘forced’ motherhood, chastity, of the ‘inferior classes’, of religion (especially Catholicism), and racial elements that were a hindrance to the breeding of a ‘race of thoroughbreds’.3 She wasn’t interested in removing the cause of poverty, illiteracy, illegitimate births, or other social ills–just attacking the result…innocent life…which inherently had nothing to do with any of the conditions in which he or she was given life.

“Organized charity itself is the symptom of a malignant social disease…Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the stocks [of people] that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world, it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant.”– Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, Chapter V, “Cruelty of Charity”
www.toomanyaborted.com/sanger/
Last Edit: 10 May 2014 08:18 by Orangeaid.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 08:18 #42

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Orangeaid wrote:
If I were a woman and didn't want children I WOULD ensure that I WOULD take contraception as ITS MY BODY. The liberal feminist catch cry. If its THEIR BODY then they should BE RESPONSIBLE with THEIR BODY sexually.

The hypocrisy of your views and those of modern liberal feminists is truly astounding. And the complete self-absorption.

Taking contraception as joint responsibility means what happens with the conceived child is a joint responsibility. Any other stance is totally hypocritical.

see posts 27 and 29
Far from being misanthropic I am very much a humanist but I put no more value on the life of a fetus than I do the life of its mother and father and siblings and their right to choose what is best for them. Not what I think is best - but what they think is best.
That is not my decision to make or live with - it is the decision of the mother and father

I also believe that contraception is shared equally - I think that men and women are equal - I am not sure why you get the impression I think otherwise.
Freedom of Speech is the liberty to say what you like, not a freedom from any kind of criticism if the views you freely express happen to be ill thought out rubbish.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 08:24 #43

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Pro-choice and equality do not coincide. Pro-choice means it is the woman's decision SOLELY on whether to have an abortion.

Why don't you show the involvement of the sperm donor in Emily Lett's pregnancy in the decision for her to have an abortion and to have it recorded on video for public broadcast?
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 08:28 #44

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The Emily Letts abortion video shows that pro-choicers are losing the plot
7 May 2014

Are the advocates of abortion going mad? Look at Emily Letts, a 25-year-old abortion counsellor, who decided to film her own ‘procedure’ to show what a wonderful life-affirming experience getting rid of your unwanted pregnancy can be. Cosmopolitan magazine has published the film online along with an article by Letts, who says ‘every time I watch the video, I love it. I love how positive it is. I think that there are just no positive abortion stories on video for everyone to see. But mine is.

Another woman, calling herself Angie AntiTheist, had produced a much-watched video of herself having a chemical abortion; Letts decided to go for the more visceral surgical option. “I could have taken the pill,” she says, “but I wanted to do the one that women were most afraid of. I wanted to show it wasn’t scary — and that there is such a thing as a positive abortion story.”

Emily is positive, no doubt about that. “I remember breathing and humming through it like I was giving birth,’ she says, recalling the op. ‘I know that sounds weird, but to me, this was as birth-like as it could be. It will always be a special memory for me. I still have my sonogram, and if my apartment were to catch fire, it would be the first thing I’d grab.”

She’s right: it does sound weird. And creepy. An abortion is in most respects the opposite of a birth. Yes, they both involve pain and a physical separation of woman from child. But one is about ‘termination’. The other is about a new life coming into the world. No amount of spin can change that. You might cheer the idea that women are no longer slaves to their sexual organs, that their lives do not have to change course because of one sexual encounter, but you cannot reasonably pretend that the act of abortion is anything other than grim. To cast abortion and childbirth in the same ‘positive’ light is not just bizarre, it is demented.

Surely the sane response, even if you think abortion should be legal and freely available, would be to call this a step too far? Yet pro-choicers have embraced the film as something important and good. It has won The Abortion Care Network’s “Stigma Busting” award, apparently, and self-styled progressives are applauding Letts’s bravery.

It’s tempting to dismiss the whole story as click-bait. Cosmo is keen to say that the video is “non-graphic” — the implication being that, while the pro-lifers like to send around horrifying pictures of mangled foetuses, they are reasonable and sensitive about the subject. But can they honestly say that, by posting a film a woman enjoying her abortion, they did not hope to generate a fair bit of online controversy and web traffic? You could also say that Ms Letts, far from being a heroine for women’s rights, is just another publicity mad young person who’ll do anything to be looked at online.

Perhaps something bigger is happening here, though. The pro-choice side seems to be slowly losing the argument and they are freaking out about it. Spain is reversing its liberal abortion laws and British feminists are outraged because not enough people here are outraged. In fact, polls suggest that people, especially women, are increasingly uncomfortable with the number and legal status of abortions in this country. The old pro-choice chestnut that ‘no woman takes the decision to abort a child lightly’ sounds facile in a world in which millions of foetuses are snuffed out each year and more and more women have ‘repeat’ abortions.

Science has changed our perceptions, too, in a way that undermines the pro-abortion position. Imaging technology shows that foetuses, even at a very early stage of gestation, are far more than just lumps of inconvenient cells. Medical advances mean that pre-term foetuses are more ‘viable’ outside the womb than ever before.

More broadly, the liberal world seems to be moving away from the old culture-war idea of abortion as a battle between enlightened moderns and the dreaded God Squad. Social conservatives have probably exaggerated the so-called Juno-effect — the theory that, through films like Juno, Knocked Up and Twilight, Hollywood was (unconsciously) starting to promote a more pro-baby agenda — but there has been a discernible cultural shift away from the view that abortion is an untrammelled good always and everywhere. Even fiercely libertine publications, like Vice, are starting to consider what the fathers of aborted babies go through.

Rather than taking up the challenge of argument, however, the pro-abortion lobby is resorting to anger and a sort of muddle-headed sentimentality. When men question the status quo, as Jeremy Hunt did, they are shouted down and called misogynists. Laurie Penny says that men can’t have ‘relevant’ views on abortion because they can’t get pregnant. And now this from America, a young woman who is so ardent about her right to choose that she has made an evangelical film about her fulfilling abortion experience.
blogs.spectator.co.uk/freddy-gray/2014/05/the-emily-letts-abortion-video-shows-that-pro-choicers-are-losing-the-plot/

Makes perfect sense that as the so called "progressives" lose yet another debate they get even more and more deranged with what they do.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 08:37 #45

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Orangeaid wrote:
Pro-choice and equality do not coincide. Pro-choice means it is the woman's decision SOLELY on whether to have an abortion.

Why don't you show the involvement of the sperm donor in Emily Lett's pregnancy in the decision for her to have an abortion and to have it recorded on video for public broadcast?

I have tried to find information about what the male partner felt about emily having an abortion and videoing it but thus far can find nothing - I have learned that she was not on conventional birth control but was instead counting her cycle - which seems ridiculous given her job but she admits as much.

Ultimately it does come down to a womans choice as it is her body - but I strongly believe that men should be allowed a say and should not be treated like sperm donors - pregnancy, miscarriage and abortion effect men too but in different ways as it does women but there does not seem to be the same sort of space for them to talk about it.
Freedom of Speech is the liberty to say what you like, not a freedom from any kind of criticism if the views you freely express happen to be ill thought out rubbish.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 10:01 #46

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thoreau wrote:
Orangeaid wrote:
Pro-choice and equality do not coincide. Pro-choice means it is the woman's decision SOLELY on whether to have an abortion.

Why don't you show the involvement of the sperm donor in Emily Lett's pregnancy in the decision for her to have an abortion and to have it recorded on video for public broadcast?

I have tried to find information about what the male partner felt about emily having an abortion and videoing it but thus far can find nothing - I have learned that she was not on conventional birth control but was instead counting her cycle - which seems ridiculous given her job but she admits as much.

Ultimately it does come down to a womans choice as it is her body - but I strongly believe that men should be allowed a say and should not be treated like sperm donors - pregnancy, miscarriage and abortion effect men too but in different ways as it does women but there does not seem to be the same sort of space for them to talk about it.


What about the baby's body?

This is typical hardcore feminism, thoreau, and you know who invented it for what reason!
If you don't we might start a thread on THE HISTORY OF FEMINISM, or anyway, let's start a research.

And after all, how do we know the video is no fake, just another shock-commercial for the chosen world order?
Those who mutilate their own babies genitally and ritually for their "god", surely won't give a second thought for any slave's baby being chopped up like cattle.
As I did not watch the video, can someone pls tell me, whether you think it's authentic?

These pictures are authentic:


CAUTION! EXPLICIT PICTURES OF CHOPPED UP BABIES DEPRIVED OF CHOICE AND LIFE!
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
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Last Edit: 10 May 2014 10:06 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 10:14 #47

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Attaching the labels "liberal" and "feminist" are clear examples of tired attempts at attacking a grouping of people you see as "bad".. It is clear that you do not like this woman or her choices regarding her abortion. I really do not see the need for the group think tactics. You paint yourself as this crusader against the evil that is feminism or liberalism or whatever. What is it you dislike about feminism or liberalism? Instead of empty arguments with labels attached.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 10:50 #48

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i-baster wrote:
Attaching the labels "liberal" and "feminist" are clear examples of tired attempts at attacking a grouping of people you see as "bad".. It is clear that you do not like this woman or her choices regarding her abortion. I really do not see the need for the group think tactics. You paint yourself as this crusader against the evil that is feminism or liberalism or whatever. What is it you dislike about feminism or liberalism? Instead of empty arguments with labels attached.

^
Master apologist of all sorts of abominable crimes against humankind at work.

You and your apologist comrades in "spirit" love the "NWO" so much that you jump in on every blog and forum, no matter how small or insignificant, whenever the final completion of the protocols seems to be at stake, because a thinking human being dares to speak out against your lies and deceptions.

Won't help, the truth is out there since long.
Blogs and forums represent only a minority of the majority who is already in the know.
Your "brave new world" is DEAD ON ARRIVAL!

DISTRACTION - DERAILING - SPAMMING is all you are able to do yet in this historic moment in time when your millenniums-old agenda finally implodes with a gentle fart-like noise and all that will be left is the stench of sulphur for a short while.

:)
"The truth must be repeated over and over again,
because error is repeatedly preached among us, not
only by individuals, but by the masses. In periodicals
and cyclopaedias, in schools and universities; every-
where, in fact, error prevails, and is quite easy in the
feeling that it has a decided majority on its side."

~ J. W. v. Goethe

Johannes Lang "The Hollow World Theory" Blog
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Last Edit: 10 May 2014 11:24 by PFIZIPFEI.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 11:07 #49

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If I wanted to attack them I'd use "deranged" "self-centred" "murderous" "insensitive" "moronic" and 'bints".

I think "progressives" also use the terms "liberal" and "feminist" pretty freely and regularly to describe themselves.

Does Rachel Maddow not describe herself as "progressive" and "liberal?

Does Gloria Steinem not call herself a feminist?
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 12:15 #50

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thoreau wrote:
you could make that argument of anyone who does anything that is going to need some sort of medical attention - or even that in choosing to become pregnant, expecting midwives and medical help - elective caesarians etc you are forcing others to train to do something to facilitate your own needs.

doctors are not forced to carry out abortions - in fact doctors have been murdered for doing so. They are legally obligated to refer people on to doctors who are willing to provide abortions but not to carry them out themselves.

Abortion is sometimes a necessary procedure in order to preserve the life of the mother. Getting plastic surgery is also a choice - those who have been severely burned or in an accident or born with birth defects are given plastic surgery and why not?

If a woman is at risk because of a pregnancy or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest why should she not have the right to an abortion?

Thanks for your reply, but I think you've not quite got the point. Where it comes to caesearians, midwives etc, I have yet to come across any aggressive polemics claiming midwives are my right, my choice, essential to my female autonomy etc etc. What I am really getting at is the specific rhetoric - which has been extremely successful - in selling abortion as a fundamental "choice", as if when a woman becomes pregnant it is a simply natural, normal decision to make whether to remain pregnant or not.

It isn't. It isn't any more than a growing child has the "choice" whether to enter puberty or not - just because some insane social engineers have now developed hormone blockers that could stop it happening, doesn't mean that not entering puberty is a real, personal, autonomous choice.

I like to think of it like bulimia. People make themselves sick and abusive laxatives despite being fully aware of the potentially dangerous consequences. We don't make this illegal, but at the same time we don't set up tax-payer funded facilities to help them do it. We don't train bulimia workers to administer Ipecac syrup, or to hook bulimics up to drips to administer lost salts, or present them with mouthwashes to prevent acid erosion.

But by the abortion rhetoric, we should. It is their body, their choice. They should be able to choose to binge on food and not have it have its natural consequences - weight gain - and not have to deal with any dangerous consequences of trying to deal with it themselves.

Abortion in its natural state is incredibly dangerous and poses an enormous risk to the mother's health, and this is a it should be, this is real, and reflects the true profundity of having one. By sanitising it and medicalising it, we are totally distorting reality regarding what it really means.

If abortion was just nothing, meaningless, a perfectly reasonable "choice", there would be an easy, straightforward, safe way of women doing it themselves. There isn't. This tells us everything we need to know.

And it's not comparable to other medical procedures like emergency C-sections, because in these we always recognise that it is only medical expertise that has saved the baby, we are grateful for having these wonderful technologies and advances etc. But nobody says that about abortion, nobody says it's an extraordinary procedure only available because of tremendous advances in technology and medicine, because that would completely destroy the "logic" abortion as choice is based on - that it's nothing, normal, unremarkable etc.

If we recognise the huge leaps of science and medicine that have been necessary to make it available, we are forced to confront how far from a natural, normal procedure and "choice" it really is.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 12:29 #51

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Timesarrow wrote:
thoreau wrote:
you could make that argument of anyone who does anything that is going to need some sort of medical attention - or even that in choosing to become pregnant, expecting midwives and medical help - elective caesarians etc you are forcing others to train to do something to facilitate your own needs.

doctors are not forced to carry out abortions - in fact doctors have been murdered for doing so. They are legally obligated to refer people on to doctors who are willing to provide abortions but not to carry them out themselves.

Abortion is sometimes a necessary procedure in order to preserve the life of the mother. Getting plastic surgery is also a choice - those who have been severely burned or in an accident or born with birth defects are given plastic surgery and why not?

If a woman is at risk because of a pregnancy or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest why should she not have the right to an abortion?

Thanks for your reply, but I think you've not quite got the point. Where it comes to caesearians, midwives etc, I have yet to come across any aggressive polemics claiming midwives are my right, my choice, essential to my female autonomy etc etc. What I am really getting at is the specific rhetoric - which has been extremely successful - in selling abortion as a fundamental "choice", as if when a woman becomes pregnant it is a simply natural, normal decision to make whether to remain pregnant or not.

It isn't. It isn't any more than a growing child has the "choice" whether to enter puberty or not - just because some insane social engineers have now developed hormone blockers that could stop it happening, doesn't mean that not entering puberty is a real, personal, autonomous choice.

I like to think of it like bulimia. People make themselves sick and abusive laxatives despite being fully aware of the potentially dangerous consequences. We don't make this illegal, but at the same time we don't set up tax-payer funded facilities to help them do it. We don't train bulimia workers to administer Ipecac syrup, or to hook bulimics up to drips to administer lost salts, or present them with mouthwashes to prevent acid erosion.

But by the abortion rhetoric, we should. It is their body, their choice. They should be able to choose to binge on food and not have it have its natural consequences - weight gain - and not have to deal with any dangerous consequences of trying to deal with it themselves.

Abortion in its natural state is incredibly dangerous and poses an enormous risk to the mother's health, and this is a it should be, this is real, and reflects the true profundity of having one. By sanitising it and medicalising it, we are totally distorting reality regarding what it really means.

If abortion was just nothing, meaningless, a perfectly reasonable "choice", there would be an easy, straightforward, safe way of women doing it themselves. There isn't. This tells us everything we need to know.

And it's not comparable to other medical procedures like emergency C-sections, because in these we always recognise that it is only medical expertise that has saved the baby, we are grateful for having these wonderful technologies and advances etc. But nobody says that about abortion, nobody says it's an extraordinary procedure only available because of tremendous advances in technology and medicine, because that would completely destroy the "logic" abortion as choice is based on - that it's nothing, normal, unremarkable etc.

If we recognise the huge leaps of science and medicine that have been necessary to make it available, we are forced to confront how far from a natural, normal procedure and "choice" it really is.

you make some interesting points that I would like to think further on thankyou
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 12:35 #52

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thoreau wrote:

you make some interesting points that I would like to think further on thankyou

Sure :) I look forward to your hearing your thoughts.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 21:34 #53

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alrighty here goes...

I have never heard an argument from 'pro choice' proponents based on the idea that abortion is natural and normal - rather that women should be able to have the right to choose what happens to their bodies.

Historically women did not have this choice

What I took from the video was not that it was natural or normal but that it does not have to be a negative experience for those who are comfortable in the decision they have made based on their circumstances and what is right for them.

I have tried to follow your logic and failed somewhat so please excuse me if I am getting it wrong but your entire objection appears to be based on the fact that a woman cannot intentionally abort a child without risk to herself. Which is a different angle for sure.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 23:39 #54

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It would be great if we all lived in a perfect world where the only pregnancies were healthy babies who were wanted by the parents, those parents loved each other and were capable and willing to look after those babies when they were born. It would be great if rape never happened and if poverty were not an issue of concern. As a pro choice man who loves his children I can not imagine ever wanted to have an abortion but I know that we do not live in a perfect world. There are many different circumstances for abortion and I don`t think anybody but those involved should have a say in the decision. The idea of filming it might seem odd but it does highlight an issue and give a new view of an old issue. Personally i don`t want to see babies being born either. Nobody is saying abortion is a great thing you should all experience. It is an option for some people in certain situations. If abortion is not something you wish to happen then don`t do it. Maybe adopt some unwanted children or do something to help those children who are on the streets or working the streets. There is a bigger picture to think about. If you have a baby and are unable to raise it etc then it might well end up living a terrible life and that will not be good for society as a whole.

We live in a messed up world and I think abortion allows some people to get through a bad time without making their lives worse. It is not an instant fix because I imagine they live with that their whole lives. They will be judged by some for it. You think that people have abortions just for a laugh? That is really idiotic.

If abortion were illegal it would still take place but it would not be as safe. That is what the religious right are trying in the US right now. They are trying to force abortion underground so that women and babies will die. They are trying to take away funding or underfund programs that help poor people who in some cases might not have that abortion if they felt able to get help feeding their baby.

It comes back to that phrase "pro life". Are you pro life or just pro birth? pro life to be means you want people to thrive and really it is sad but sometimes that means having an abortion I think.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 10 May 2014 23:56 #55

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i-baster wrote:
It would be great if we all lived in a perfect world where the only pregnancies were healthy babies who were wanted by the parents, those parents loved each other and were capable and willing to look after those babies when they were born. It would be great if rape never happened and if poverty were not an issue of concern. As a pro choice man who loves his children I can not imagine ever wanted to have an abortion but I know that we do not live in a perfect world. There are many different circumstances for abortion and I don`t think anybody but those involved should have a say in the decision. The idea of filming it might seem odd but it does highlight an issue and give a new view of an old issue. Personally i don`t want to see babies being born either. Nobody is saying abortion is a great thing you should all experience. It is an option for some people in certain situations. If abortion is not something you wish to happen then don`t do it. Maybe adopt some unwanted children or do something to help those children who are on the streets or working the streets. There is a bigger picture to think about. If you have a baby and are unable to raise it etc then it might well end up living a terrible life and that will not be good for society as a whole.

We live in a messed up world and I think abortion allows some people to get through a bad time without making their lives worse. It is not an instant fix because I imagine they live with that their whole lives. They will be judged by some for it. You think that people have abortions just for a laugh? That is really idiotic.

If abortion were illegal it would still take place but it would not be as safe. That is what the religious right are trying in the US right now. They are trying to force abortion underground so that women and babies will die. They are trying to take away funding or underfund programs that help poor people who in some cases might not have that abortion if they felt able to get help feeding their baby.

It comes back to that phrase "pro life". Are you pro life or just pro birth? pro life to be means you want people to thrive and really it is sad but sometimes that means having an abortion I think.

Well, until pretty recently, our culture was fundamentally founded on ensuring pregnancies only occurred within stable relationships where the couple was committed to each other and the baby wanted. This was the building block of Western civilization, which was Christian civilization. Christians didn't stigmatise sex before marriage because they were nasty meanies who wanted to spoil everyone's fun, but because they were acutely aware of the horrific consequences of sexuality that is not properly channelled and controlled.

Deregulating sex as we have done into an "anything goes" (as long as it's "consensual") culture was the biggest death knell our culture has ever seen. It wiped out our stability, morality, mental health, families, and ability to thrive in a matter of decades. As every previous civilization has always known it would, which is why they didn't do it.

The reason Catholicism has historically been against contraception is, again, not because they are nasty meanies and are against people enjoying sex, but because they know what the contraceptive culture leads to. A total detachment from the true meaning and importance of sex. With contraception, people believe they can have sex with no consequences, that this is their right. But no contraception is infallible and there are millions of people walking the planet today who were conceived when their parents were using contraception. Even sterilisation operations fail.

That's why promoting contraception leads to abortion, because it stops people understanding what sex is actually for - reproduction - and they are so shocked and appalled when it has his natural consequence that they immediately rush out for an abortion.

Sex is not a frivolous, trivial thing, it is not just a harmless hobby like playing tennis. People need to understand this (they used to) and respect the gravity of the activity, by only engaging in it with people they are deeply committed to, and when they understand there is always a possibility of pregnancy.

Yes, a very small minority of abortions occur from rape (less than 1%), and of course I am sympathetic to these women and understand why they make that decision. But it is not morally correct in my view, because the baby is innocent and does not deserve to be killed. If we are to kill anyone, we should kill the rapist (I'm against the death penalty, but I'm just saying, if anyone is to die for that crime, it should be the person who actually committed it). And there is a huge abundance of evidence that shows abortion makes the trauma of rape worse. Women who choose to keep a baby conceived in rape almost uniformly report what a positive, healing experience that decision is and fare much better psychologically than those who choose to abort.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 11 May 2014 00:22 #56

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Timesarrow wrote:

Well, until pretty recently, our culture was fundamentally founded on ensuring pregnancies only occurred within stable relationships where the couple was committed to each other and the baby wanted.

I disagree
This was the building block of Western civilization, which was Christian civilization. Christians didn't stigmatise sex before marriage because they were nasty meanies who wanted to spoil everyone's fun, but because they were acutely aware of the horrific consequences of sexuality that is not properly channelled and controlled.
Again I disagree. Of course not all Christians are the same or preach the same thing but I see a lot of Christian institutions that simply denounce people for having sex or having abortions. very little in the way of actual help or understanding. They might mean well but it does come across as them being "nasty meanies" as you put it.
Deregulating sex as we have done into an "anything goes" (as long as it's "consensual") culture was the biggest death knell our culture has ever seen. It wiped out our stability, morality, mental health, families, and ability to thrive in a matter of decades. As every previous civilization has always known it would, which is why they didn't do it.

Well I am sure people have always broken the rules regarding sex. I don`t think abortion is new or rape or experimental curious sex. You are talking about something romantically in your head rather than the truth I feel.
The reason Catholicism has historically been against contraception is, again, not because they are nasty meanies and are against people enjoying sex, but because they know what the contraceptive culture leads to. A total detachment from the true meaning and importance of sex. With contraception, people believe they can have sex with no consequences, that this is their right. But no contraception is infallible and there are millions of people walking the planet today who were conceived when their parents were using contraception. Even sterilisation operations fail.

I understand their intentions but this just ends up with people getting pregnant when birth control could have avoided it. Education is great but people are still going to have sex even if you tell them it is just to make babies.
That's why promoting contraception leads to abortion, because it stops people understanding what sex is actually for - reproduction - and they are so shocked and appalled when it has his natural consequence that they immediately rush out for an abortion.

I disagree again. Contraception would cause less abortions. This to me is logical. To suggest promoting contraception would increase abortions is rather absurd in my view.
Sex is not a frivolous, trivial thing, it is not just a harmless hobby like playing tennis. People need to understand this (they used to) and respect the gravity of the activity, by only engaging in it with people they are deeply committed to, and when they understand there is always a possibility of pregnancy.

Nobody is saying we should just have sex and then get abortions every time. I am all for education. Informed people are great and we should give people information to make decisions. Absolutely agree that sex is not like Tennis although both are pretty good workouts. Pregnancies will still happen. People still smoke and drink and jump out of planes too despite warnings and information about the dangers.
Yes, a very small minority of abortions occur from rape (less than 1%), and of course I am sympathetic to these women and understand why they make that decision. But it is not morally correct in my view, because the baby is innocent and does not deserve to be killed. If we are to kill anyone, we should kill the rapist (I'm against the death penalty, but I'm just saying, if anyone is to die for that crime, it should be the person who actually committed it). And there is a huge abundance of evidence that shows abortion makes the trauma of rape worse. Women who choose to keep a baby conceived in rape almost uniformly report what a positive, healing experience that decision is and fare much better psychologically than those who choose to abort.

You have sources for these claims? It is beside the point anyway. I mentioned rape but that is just one example of why a woman might wish to have an abortion.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 11 May 2014 00:34 #57

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i-baster wrote:
Timesarrow wrote:

Well, until pretty recently, our culture was fundamentally founded on ensuring pregnancies only occurred within stable relationships where the couple was committed to each other and the baby wanted.

I disagree
This was the building block of Western civilization, which was Christian civilization. Christians didn't stigmatise sex before marriage because they were nasty meanies who wanted to spoil everyone's fun, but because they were acutely aware of the horrific consequences of sexuality that is not properly channelled and controlled.
Again I disagree. Of course not all Christians are the same or preach the same thing but I see a lot of Christian institutions that simply denounce people for having sex or having abortions. very little in the way of actual help or understanding. They might mean well but it does come across as them being "nasty meanies" as you put it.
Deregulating sex as we have done into an "anything goes" (as long as it's "consensual") culture was the biggest death knell our culture has ever seen. It wiped out our stability, morality, mental health, families, and ability to thrive in a matter of decades. As every previous civilization has always known it would, which is why they didn't do it.

Well I am sure people have always broken the rules regarding sex. I don`t think abortion is new or rape or experimental curious sex. You are talking about something romantically in your head rather than the truth I feel.
The reason Catholicism has historically been against contraception is, again, not because they are nasty meanies and are against people enjoying sex, but because they know what the contraceptive culture leads to. A total detachment from the true meaning and importance of sex. With contraception, people believe they can have sex with no consequences, that this is their right. But no contraception is infallible and there are millions of people walking the planet today who were conceived when their parents were using contraception. Even sterilisation operations fail.

I understand their intentions but this just ends up with people getting pregnant when birth control could have avoided it. Education is great but people are still going to have sex even if you tell them it is just to make babies.
That's why promoting contraception leads to abortion, because it stops people understanding what sex is actually for - reproduction - and they are so shocked and appalled when it has his natural consequence that they immediately rush out for an abortion.

I disagree again. Contraception would cause less abortions. This to me is logical. To suggest promoting contraception would increase abortions is rather absurd in my view.
Sex is not a frivolous, trivial thing, it is not just a harmless hobby like playing tennis. People need to understand this (they used to) and respect the gravity of the activity, by only engaging in it with people they are deeply committed to, and when they understand there is always a possibility of pregnancy.

Nobody is saying we should just have sex and then get abortions every time. I am all for education. Informed people are great and we should give people information to make decisions. Absolutely agree that sex is not like Tennis although both are pretty good workouts. Pregnancies will still happen. People still smoke and drink and jump out of planes too despite warnings and information about the dangers.
Yes, a very small minority of abortions occur from rape (less than 1%), and of course I am sympathetic to these women and understand why they make that decision. But it is not morally correct in my view, because the baby is innocent and does not deserve to be killed. If we are to kill anyone, we should kill the rapist (I'm against the death penalty, but I'm just saying, if anyone is to die for that crime, it should be the person who actually committed it). And there is a huge abundance of evidence that shows abortion makes the trauma of rape worse. Women who choose to keep a baby conceived in rape almost uniformly report what a positive, healing experience that decision is and fare much better psychologically than those who choose to abort.

You have sources for these claims? It is beside the point anyway. I mentioned rape but that is just one example of why a woman might wish to have an abortion.

Unfortunately, you have fallen for all the propaganda about "the bad old days", and how things have always happened behind closed doors, the idea anyone ever had any morals is just a romantic illusion, etc etc.

Well, it's nonsense. People did live completely differently until extremely recently (60s), and the average number of sexual partners for both sexes was less than two. It was extremely normal for people to be virgins on their wedding night, and to be faithful to their spouse until they died. This was the norm, the rule. Sexually experienced people were unusual, sexually promiscuous people almost unheard of, and on the very fringes of society. These are the facts, and of course I have sources, but I have learned through long tedious trial and error that whenever you go to the trouble of presenting them to someone, they just discount them "biased!" "unrepresentative!", "made up!", and as we can all say that about anything, there's really no point. Believe what you want, I'm telling you the truth.

Contraception doesn't cause less abortions, it causes more, again it's a fact. People who are morally opposed to contraception are hardly going to be OK with abortion, are they? It has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that "educating" people on contraception does not prevent unwanted pregnancy and never could or would, since even with perfect usage (which in itself is rare), contraception still fails. There is one sure fire way of not getting pregnant - abstinence, until you're in a situation where a pregnancy wouldn't be a terrible disaster.

The Amish are against contraception, no mass abortions happening there, and no mental breakdowns either. In fact Amish women have the best post-natal psychological health of any white Western group (and yes, I have sources - in fact I wrote a whole paper on it).

Whether you believe it or not, the way our society is now is an aberration with no comparable example in recorded history. We have not always been this way, and things were very, very different in the recent past. Our society, communities, families and culture have shattered irreparably and there is no going back. Only cultures that respect the true gravity of sex, marriage, children and the family survive and thrive - history has shown us that repeatedly. Whenever societies become promiscuous, they fall almost instantly.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 11 May 2014 01:53 #58

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How can a condom be immoral?
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 11 May 2014 01:53 #59

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Timesarrow wrote:
i-baster wrote:
It would be great if we all lived in a perfect world where the only pregnancies were healthy babies who were wanted by the parents, those parents loved each other and were capable and willing to look after those babies when they were born. It would be great if rape never happened and if poverty were not an issue of concern. As a pro choice man who loves his children I can not imagine ever wanted to have an abortion but I know that we do not live in a perfect world. There are many different circumstances for abortion and I don`t think anybody but those involved should have a say in the decision. The idea of filming it might seem odd but it does highlight an issue and give a new view of an old issue. Personally i don`t want to see babies being born either. Nobody is saying abortion is a great thing you should all experience. It is an option for some people in certain situations. If abortion is not something you wish to happen then don`t do it. Maybe adopt some unwanted children or do something to help those children who are on the streets or working the streets. There is a bigger picture to think about. If you have a baby and are unable to raise it etc then it might well end up living a terrible life and that will not be good for society as a whole.

We live in a messed up world and I think abortion allows some people to get through a bad time without making their lives worse. It is not an instant fix because I imagine they live with that their whole lives. They will be judged by some for it. You think that people have abortions just for a laugh? That is really idiotic.

If abortion were illegal it would still take place but it would not be as safe. That is what the religious right are trying in the US right now. They are trying to force abortion underground so that women and babies will die. They are trying to take away funding or underfund programs that help poor people who in some cases might not have that abortion if they felt able to get help feeding their baby.

It comes back to that phrase "pro life". Are you pro life or just pro birth? pro life to be means you want people to thrive and really it is sad but sometimes that means having an abortion I think.

Well, until pretty recently, our culture was fundamentally founded on ensuring pregnancies only occurred within stable relationships where the couple was committed to each other and the baby wanted. This was the building block of Western civilization, which was Christian civilization. Christians didn't stigmatise sex before marriage because they were nasty meanies who wanted to spoil everyone's fun, but because they were acutely aware of the horrific consequences of sexuality that is not properly channelled and controlled.

Deregulating sex as we have done into an "anything goes" (as long as it's "consensual") culture was the biggest death knell our culture has ever seen. It wiped out our stability, morality, mental health, families, and ability to thrive in a matter of decades. As every previous civilization has always known it would, which is why they didn't do it.

The reason Catholicism has historically been against contraception is, again, not because they are nasty meanies and are against people enjoying sex, but because they know what the contraceptive culture leads to. A total detachment from the true meaning and importance of sex. With contraception, people believe they can have sex with no consequences, that this is their right. But no contraception is infallible and there are millions of people walking the planet today who were conceived when their parents were using contraception. Even sterilisation operations fail.

That's why promoting contraception leads to abortion, because it stops people understanding what sex is actually for - reproduction - and they are so shocked and appalled when it has his natural consequence that they immediately rush out for an abortion.

Sex is not a frivolous, trivial thing, it is not just a harmless hobby like playing tennis. People need to understand this (they used to) and respect the gravity of the activity, by only engaging in it with people they are deeply committed to, and when they understand there is always a possibility of pregnancy.

Yes, a very small minority of abortions occur from rape (less than 1%), and of course I am sympathetic to these women and understand why they make that decision. But it is not morally correct in my view, because the baby is innocent and does not deserve to be killed. If we are to kill anyone, we should kill the rapist (I'm against the death penalty, but I'm just saying, if anyone is to die for that crime, it should be the person who actually committed it). And there is a huge abundance of evidence that shows abortion makes the trauma of rape worse. Women who choose to keep a baby conceived in rape almost uniformly report what a positive, healing experience that decision is and fare much better psychologically than those who choose to abort.
Brilliant post Timesarrow. Bang on the money. I really loathe the use of the term Sodom and Gomorrah but that I feel is what the West has become through "deregulation of sex". Brilliant term.

Civilisations historically have collapsed where sex had been deregulated. Ancient Rome, Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece, Ancient Judea. I'm not sure about Egypt but usury played a major part in the downfall of the other 3.

Seems historical evidence points to sexuality deregulation and usury going hand in hand.

Abortion should always be a measure of last resort. That was it's intention, not as a form of contraception itself. Australia provides contraception for free to the less well off and to others it's just a prescription from the pharmacy.

It has been freely available since the 60s. Yet nationally over >100,000 abortions are conducted annually. Many are done fir free on the public health system.

Abortion has become seen by many as another form of contraception. Which it is not. So called pro choice advocates have just been brainwashed by manipulative social engineers hellbent on destroying western civilisation.

It is just yet another string in their bow to facilitate that aim. Thankfully many are aware of these evil aims and the desperation of Emily Letts' attempt to get her 15 minutes of fame just reeks of derangement and the loss of this absurd "debate" by the brainwashed liberal feminists.
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Liberal Feminist Films Herself Having An Abortion. Because GIRL POWER. 11 May 2014 03:05 #60

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Thanks Orangeaid, and yes indeed - Sodom and Gomorrah is here. If anyone wants any proof of how utterly insane our society is, you need look no further than the fact we ritually sacrifice millions of our unborn young and label it as female empowerment! It is the worst, most depraved and sick form of female oppression there is - that's why it's so horrifying that the main proponents of it are women.

And the mentality is so schizophrenic and insane when on the one hand we're told abortion is nothing, meaningless, just a blob of cells, whatever - but then people up in arms because foetal remains are not treated "respectfully" (e.g. when they were allegedly incinerated for heat etc) - ? If abortions don't matter and a foetus is not a person, why does it matter what happens to them?

In Biology courses, students often dissect foetal pigs because they are the closest to humans in anatomy and a useless by-product of the slaughter industry. I wanted to know why then, human foetuses aren't used, because they actually human and a useless by-product of the casual sex industry?

People were horrified by my enquiry, and this is just the point. They should be horrified, it is a horrific idea. Because abortion is horrific. If it were in any way normal, meaningless, acceptable, why would there be any problem using aborted foetuses in Biology classes? They're just unwanted blobs of cells, why not?
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